Moto3

**sil3nt** · 20th August 2010, 11:36

Originally Posted by Maido

Am I correct in saying that that RS in that article is a road going one and not the GP version so it isn't really a correct comparason

Pretty sure the article makes that quite clear!

**Ivan** · 20th August 2010, 12:18

Originally Posted by Maido

Am I correct in saying that that RS in that article is a road going one and not the GP version so it isn't really a correct comparason

Yip the gayest comparison ever a bike with mint suspension mint chassis mint brakes vs a raod bike wih cheap brakes suspension etc a frame not designed for it and end of the day a learners road bike!

But even then that Moriwaki aint what they will be racing thats a CRF250x a enduro bike engine not even a full on race engine

**CHOPPA** · 20th August 2010, 12:56

Looking at the lap times from ASBK where they run the MD250 against the RS125 Hondas they are on average 2 secs a lap slower

**Maido** · 20th August 2010, 14:12

Goes without saying anyway but if they are going to replace the entire class lap (judging from AJturbos's original post they are) the times will be irrelevant anyway I suppose.
Typically you would think that the slower the bikes are the closer the racing will be, but this isn't always the case.

**steveyb** · 20th August 2010, 15:28

Originally Posted by Maido

Goes without saying anyway but if they are going to replace the entire class lap (judging from AJturbos's original post they are) the times will be irrelevant anyway I suppose.
Typically you would think that the slower the bikes are the closer the racing will be, but this isn't always the case.

Year a pretty gay comparo, and considering that they had the Honda RS125 of Daytona there, makes you think that infact the story was a bit of a marketing ploy for Honda/Moriwaki to make the MD250H look sweet.

However, laptimes is a really important part of the equation.
Riders and teams will not be attracted to ride in Moto3 if the bikes are quite a bit slower than the 125 2T bikes.
The MD250H was really the first attempt at making a customer Moto3 style machine and used a production engine. Various other Japanese factories have made bikes, but only Moriwaki tooled up to sell them.
The engines and transmissions of the Moto3 bikes are going to need to be quite a bit better than the CRF250x motor used in the MD250H. But there are prototype bikes running in Japan right now (well maybe not right NOW, but well, you know...) and only the factory prototype bikes can keep up with equivalently spec'd 125 2T bikes.
The rule also allows the use of quite a few more engines than the big bikes, suggesting that the engines will be somewhat consumable.
I still think that they should have gone for a 250 or 200 twin as Harold Bartol was suggesting. And also, why not let only customer 125s compete at the same time?
Like this year in Moto2, except no one wanted to play, and the first couple of years in MotoGP.

**Ivan** · 20th August 2010, 16:38

Yeah I had some Japanese dude on Myspace add me ages ago and was saying in pigeon english about how he is riding for suzuki and they have been testing these four stroke motors sent me a link they look pretty quick going around track.

We need to look at it in the fact that whatever we say isnt going to mean anything and I love 125's they taught me everything I know, But times change bikes change and we will see that these bikes are going to be alot differnt than you think they will be no motogp team is going to develo a chassis then slap a RMZ or YZF450 engine it whats the point in that? they are going to build motors, Moriwaki probably allready have something up there sleeve and will build a engine based around the chassis they have built for the MDH

**SS90** · 21st August 2010, 00:08

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

**Brian d marge** · 21st August 2010, 01:24

Originally Posted by SS90

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

agreed , I have a paper , long since misplaced , but it was a research paper , by Yamaha on direct injection

from memory the electrics weren't fast enough but they had a 100 cc engine up and running

I don't know about the big four , more like the big 1 maybe 2 , with possibly Honda leading the charge to bend err persuade the rule changes

Stephen

**steveyb** · 21st August 2010, 14:08

Originally Posted by SS90

2 strokes re not dead, far from it.

Here in Europe (mainly KTM) still invest big money in developing (and now purchasing rights to the latest direct injection technology...which, believe it or not comes from Perth in Australia)

The systems work, pass Euro 4 laws,and still make more power than the equivalent 4 stroke.

Things like the move to GP 4 strokes are "big 4 pressure based", and, while currently are doomed to come into place, will, however, not remain for ever.

For manufacturers, it is about volume of sales, and profit per unit.

If, there is a clear market to increase 1) volumes, and 2) profit per unit, by concentrating on 2 strokes again, I assure you, it will happen.....

I foresee in a few years, modern 125's, subject to emmissions testing as part of racing homalgomation being permitted to compete (and beat) 250cc 4 strokes.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that the 250cc 4 strokes are going to be anything like the current MH250 in terms of power, they are sadly mistaken, expect to see something like an engine that revs to 18,000 rpm, and produces in the area of 50ps (or more)

€10,000 to make a 250cc 4 stroke do this? Pfffttttt, they have been able to do that since the 70's

Absolutely all true.
Euopean 2T engines have passed Euro4 laws for ages now.
The 4T push has come mainly at the insistance of Honda who are the biggest supporter of MotoGP and have been always a 4T company, only making 2T bikes when they had no other choice to compete.
I have heard through hearsay of numbers like 120-125 hp for the factory KTM 250 GP engine and clearly the Aprilia would not be far away.
4T racing is way more expensive than 2T racing at the prototype level. At the semi-production level like Moto2 t is less so, but then it is no longer prototype.

**SS90** · 21st August 2010, 22:01

Originally Posted by steveyb

I have heard through hearsay of numbers like 120-125 hp for the factory KTM 250 GP engine

That's not quite true (rumors are generally based on so level of fact), but do expect to see KTM with the most powerful engine.

I hear they have some prototype engines with incredible power (like the 100 odd Dr Steve mentioned), but their power delivery and engine life is pretty shabby.

My guess is about 3/4 of the rumors..... anywhere from 65 to 85ps ( I earlier said 50ps, but I meant 70)......over 100 ps is realistic (sounds bollocks, but it is a reality), but, as always, they are going to be limited to a certain number of engines...... a single cylinder 4 stroke producing upwards of 100ps is about as stressed as it gets..... and although €10,000 buys you alot of magnesium, Titanium, carbon fiber and various alloys, these parts don't last long at 18 thousand odd revs per minute.

Producing just one set of prototype cases for a single cylinder engine ( I know for a fact KTM don't have the machinery needed to do this themselves, they have it done in the north of Germany), costs in excess of €80,000. (multi axis mills per hour charge out rate is phenominal)

So let's say that just the prototype cases (they then make the moulds from this prototype) cost's €80,000, (all up costs to be producing cases..... probably a cool €100,000) each engine costs €10,000 (how many engines do they need for a full team and privateers.....maybe 100?

Considering it used to cost 1 million to HIRE an Aprilia RS250 from the factory, if a company like KTM had to spend €1.1million on building it's first years stock of 250 4 stroke engines, it is, put in context, a pittance.

As for frames? Pffft....., KTM & Aprilia have a wealth of knowledge on this, and plenty of 125 and 250cc championship winning formulas.

Sheltered from Europe, NZ really only see the Japanese stuff, but it is with this new class, Kiwi's will start to see European companies (Oh, Husky have a team planned too I hear, when they where brought out by BMW 2 years ago, they installed a management team from Germany to "organise" the place, and BMW have shown their commitment to racing in WSB) "take it to the Japs" in a big way.

Rotax will be in their too (one way or another).

Then, when THEY have the strength (due to increased volume, spurred on by the sales gained from winning races), the pressure will come from THEM to introduce emission controlled 125cc to compete in the class alongside the 250cc 4 strokes.

Believe me, the future is 2 strokes.

They will have slightly less power than they are capable of, but be as low polluting as a 250cc 4 stroke.

And much much cheaper to produce. (No titanium valves, rods (don't need to rev over 14,000, where as a 4 stroke needs in excess of 18,000 to be even close in term of BMP), cams, cam chain so on and so forth)

Basically less than half the cost of producing a 4 stroke 250 single. (The fuel injection initially will be more costly, but as volumes increase, and investment capital is returned, the price will fall dramatically, and represent something closer to the 100 Euro price it actually costs to produce.