Islamisation

[R-Soul]

How does Knowledge of the scriptures Change the Point that was bring made....

It doesn't - Edbear picks and chooses as much as the next religious man.

[rustyrobot]

Out of interest - how are you guys typing in Maori tones? Is there some kind of crazy key combination to get those caricatures? Would be a handy thing to know.

There is a Māori macron pack for windows available from Microsoft.

I think that most Westerners are blind to what culture is because we have such a smug superiority about our own. For a lot of us we see culture as clothes, foods, dances. Those are just the most visual elements. The deeper fundamental aspects of our culture and subsequently all other cultures, totally misses us. We are saturated with our cultural perspective in movies and tv, books and magazines. We become oblivious to it.

There are HUGE differences between a Māori cultural world view, and a Western Anglo-Saxon world view. At the most basic level, our relationship with the land is completely different. Our ideas about family structures and relationships are completely different. The way we treat guests, even hostile or unwanted guests is different. The way our society is structured totally reflects Anglo-Saxon tastes and norms - the court system, the school system, work environments, council structures, housing.

A different language is only the beginning, and to think that by putting signs in two languages we are bi-cultural is so naive it is painful. (Not suggesting that you were doing that avgas). As far as the idea of being multi-cultural goes, I can't even imagine how that would be possible (a country of people FROM many cultures is a different thing though), or even desirable.

[avgas]

I am no NZ history buff BUT: Didn't the Maori's drive out another culture when they came in? If so, then common sense tells me that they have as much right to call it "true" NZ culture as whites do?

I would rather not go into what happened before Maori - for the very simple reason, that the only way Maori will embrace what NZ has become, is when they feel welcome.
To simply have a stand-off, stating "You weren't here first" - will only divide the individuals of NZ further. We are of 1 people. We are kiwi.

[avgas]

I think that most Westerners are blind to what culture is because we have such a smug superiority about our own. For a lot of us we see culture as clothes, foods, dances. Those are just the most visual elements. The deeper fundamental aspects of our culture and subsequently all other cultures, totally misses us. We are saturated with our cultural perspective in movies and tv, books and magazines. We become oblivious to it.
There are HUGE differences between a Māori cultural world view, and a Western Anglo-Saxon world view. At the most basic level, our relationship with the land is completely different. Our ideas about family structures and relationships are completely different. The way we treat guests, even hostile or unwanted guests is different. The way our society is structured totally reflects Anglo-Saxon tastes and norms - the court system, the school system, work environments, council structures, housing.
A different language is only the beginning, and to think that by putting signs in two languages we are bi-cultural is so naive it is painful. (Not suggesting that you were doing that avgas). As far as the idea of being multi-cultural goes, I can't even imagine how that would be possible (a country of people FROM many cultures is a different thing though), or even desirable.

Sorry - but I wasn't born an Anglo-Saxon. My blood line possibly may be - but only in the same way that Maori bloodline in Chinese.
Likewise I don't follow the culture that many Anglo-Saxon's follow. I have something unique. What I have doesn't fit with the rest of the world.....yet I have some things that fit with all.
Perhaps I am more accepting that others. But perhaps you could look at me - and I hope it shows you that the possibility does exist. And it is up to you to change first.
Re-read your first sentence. What assumptions have you made?

[Oscar]

I think that most Westerners are blind to what culture is because we have such a smug superiority about our own. For a lot of us we see culture as clothes, foods, dances. Those are just the most visual elements. The deeper fundamental aspects of our culture and subsequently all other cultures, totally misses us. We are saturated with our cultural perspective in movies and tv, books and magazines. We become oblivious to it.

There are HUGE differences between a Māori cultural world view, and a Western Anglo-Saxon world view. At the most basic level, our relationship with the land is completely different. Our ideas about family structures and relationships are completely different. The way we treat guests, even hostile or unwanted guests is different. The way our society is structured totally reflects Anglo-Saxon tastes and norms - the court system, the school system, work environments, council structures, housing.

That is such condescending bullshit.
The mere fact that you are talking about a "Western Anglo-Saxon Worldview" shows how pitiful your grasp on the subject is. I was born in the North of England and our culture is as vibrant and unique as any other - why you'd group it with the entire Western European culture is beyond me. It's like me grouping Maori with all of Polynesia. We have a connection to the land that goes back before Maori had left Asia, and a history as rich as any other. So stop trying to play the mystical caring society card, which is nothing unique and just makes you look like the pseudo-intellectual racist prat that you no doubt are. .

As for NZ Society, it isn't European and it isn't Maori, it's a blend of both.

Oh, and BTW - there was never any written Maori language, so please explain why you have the cultural insensitivity to insist on your own pronunciations and this macron bullshit in a language that you have borrowed from my people. After all - do I get a say in what's carved in the meeting house? And if I have to sing the National Anthem in Maori (which I quite like), why isn't some of the Haka done in English?

[rustyrobot]

Sorry - but I wasn't born an Anglo-Saxon. My blood line possibly may be - but only in the same way that Maori bloodline in Chinese.
Likewise I don't follow the culture that many Anglo-Saxon's follow. I have something unique. What I have doesn't fit with the rest of the world.....yet I have some things that fit with all.
Perhaps I am more accepting that others. But perhaps you could look at me - and I hope it shows you that the possibility does exist. And it is up to you to change first.
Re-read your first sentence. What assumptions have you made?

Well, to be perfectly honest I think that if you were born in the Westernised world (UK, USA, Europe, Canada, South Africa, Australia, NZ) then you have been socialised with Anglo-Saxon world-views and cultural norms. It is not a coincidence that the governmental, legal, justice, education and health systems in those countries are so similar (and they are, with some obvious differences in flavour).

I don't think my first sentence necessarily talks about you at all. One of the deficits of English language is the pro-nouns are so limiting. I am an Anglo-Saxon, raised in New Zealand. My cultural upbringing was entirely Anglo-Saxon, although I observed and participated in other cultural traditions that I saw around me. I speak at least for myself, for lots of my friends and for most of the people I meet in New Zealand who were raised in a similar environment. I tried to use the word Anglo-Saxon instead of Pākehā or Tau-iwi.

What I hear from those people is that we are now 'kiwis' or 'one New Zealand', but that 'one' has to be the one that reflects their cultural ideals. When challenged people might nod towards the haka or some Māori language signs, but most of them don't even have the decency to try to pronounce Māori words correctly, let alone think about what it might mean to absorb or practice some Māori cultural ideals.

Of course Māori culture would change over time, the same as any other culture does. What I am trying to emphasize is that underneath all of these visual signs of culture the deeper philosophical, existential, spiritual values that underpin our cultures are so fundamentally different that we can't just put a different colour paint on a 'house' that has been made from the building blocks of another culture and then consider it changed.

[R-Soul]

There is a Māori macron pack for windows available from Microsoft.

I think that most Westerners are blind to what culture is because we have such a smug superiority about our own. For a lot of us we see culture as clothes, foods, dances. Those are just the most visual elements. The deeper fundamental aspects of our culture and subsequently all other cultures, totally misses us. We are saturated with our cultural perspective in movies and tv, books and magazines. We become oblivious to it.

There are HUGE differences between a Māori cultural world view, and a Western Anglo-Saxon world view. At the most basic level, our relationship with the land is completely different. Our ideas about family structures and relationships are completely different. The way we treat guests, even hostile or unwanted guests is different. The way our society is structured totally reflects Anglo-Saxon tastes and norms - the court system, the school system, work environments, council structures, housing.

A different language is only the beginning, and to think that by putting signs in two languages we are bi-cultural is so naive it is painful. (Not suggesting that you were doing that avgas). As far as the idea of being multi-cultural goes, I can't even imagine how that would be possible (a country of people FROM many cultures is a different thing though), or even desirable.

In SA, some populations have bth a westernised and an indigenous viewpooint on religion.
For example, they are both Christians and also believe in their ancestors and acting in a manner that placates their ancestors. The fact that these religions are completely at odds with each other just dosn't seem to bother them. And maybe sometimes we are blinded by our own conceptions of what we can handle spiritually and emotionally.

For example, most people aggree that "you can only love one person" and yet there are many that turn around and manage to love two or more quite easily, (more so than many who only love one). We all tend to think in black and white according to our upbringing, but in reality there is no black and white - just shades of grey.

[marie_speeds]

I thought this thread was about Islamisation? Is it now about Maori and WASPS?

[oldrider]

OK. Let's all be one people - let's all be Māori - at least in culture ...

Oh, that's not what I mean I hear you say .. Yes, exactly. What you mean is; "Let's all be one people - let's all be White - or at least white culture" ...

Imposing European Culture on groups of people is no different to attempts to impose Islam on others ...

The culture that has been evolving since 1840 is "New Zealand culture".

How we became part of it is our own individual "personal" history.

[rustyrobot]

That is such condescending bullshit.
The mere fact that you are talking about a "Western Anglo-Saxon Worldview" shows how pitiful your grasp on the subject is. I was born in the North of England and our culture is as vibrant and unique as any other - why you'd group it with the entire Western European culture is beyond me. It's like me grouping Maori with all of Polynesia. We have a connection to the land that goes back before Maori had left Asia, and a history as rich as any other. So stop trying to play the mystical caring society card, which is nothing unique and just makes you look like the pseudo-intellectual racist prat that you no doubt are. .

As for NZ Society, it isn't European and it isn't Maori, it's a blend of both.

Oh, and BTW - there was never any written Maori language, so please explain why you have the cultural insensitivity to insist on your own pronunciations and this macron bullshit in a language that you have borrowed from my people. After all - do I get a say in what's carved in the meeting house? And if I have to sing the National Anthem in Maori (which I quite like), why isn't some of the Haka done in English?

Well, it may be that I am a psuedo-intellectual, you are welcome to believe I am a prat, and I think that yes I probably am racist, despite trying consciously not to be. I don't know what the mystical caring society card is, but you're welcome to explain.

I use the Māori macros when I remember where they go, because that denounces where the long vowel sounds go. You can't say Māori is not a written language because it clearly is.

I have no intention to discount your culture Oscar. I am proud to be a New Zealander of British descent. My family have lived near the bank of the Thames for as long as we know. Down the mighty Thames river flowed boats that explored the entire world. There are many cultural traditions that I am proud of, some actions I would rather forget (but choose not to), and a bright future that I look forward to. I know how different our cultures are because I know how hard it is for me to exist in a Māori cultural space, it requires a huge shift in my fundamental views and beliefs.

Yes, there are some small amounts of Māori culture that have penetrated the institutions in this country, but I would suggest that in the most part they are tokenistic. I don't hold one culture up above another, but I still do and will continue to say that the society in this country is based almost entirely on a cultural system imposed from England. To suggest we are now 'one New Zealand' and therefore must all accept this system does not make it any less English.

[rustyrobot]

...if I have to sing the National Anthem in Maori (which I quite like), why isn't some of the Haka done in English?

Perhaps you could rally people for some balance and there could be a fierce morris dance before sporting events too?

[rustyrobot]

I thought this thread was about Islamisation? Is it now about Maori and WASPS?

I guess it was really about cultural imperialism all along.

[R-Soul]

I would rather not go into what happened before Maori - for the very simple reason, that the only way Maori will embrace what NZ has become, is when they feel welcome.
To simply have a stand-off, stating "You weren't here first" - will only divide the individuals of NZ further. We are of 1 people. We are kiwi.

Well then I would prefer to not go into any history predating 4 years ago (when I arrived), for the very same reason. And while I am not officially kiwi yet (show me the passport first son), I dont see why I should compromise my culture if its not reciprocated.

I also dont understand how Maori cannot feel welcome, since they predated mostly everyone. It may be because of the patronising racist attitude that westernised white cultures adapted (100's of years ago) in their colonisation of other's territories. But the Maoris should not feel alone in that - many other invaded cultures (Boers, Indians, Arabs, South American indians- you name it), hated the attitude of the colonial powers then - (and some still do, since the colonial powere departed when it suited them, leaving massive power vacuums that still cause conflict).

Perhaps this is where things fall apart though, because, in reality, life has moved on, the colonial powers are no longer colonial, imperialistic or even very powerful, frankly (although France still has an arrogant finger in a couple of West African pies) . And their descendants no longer view themelves as being British, French or any other of the colonial nations. They find themselves where they are, and love their land, and regard themselves as being as indigenous as any Maori.

For example the Afrikaners in South Africa dont see a "return" to any other "home" territory as an option. Similarly white Aussies and Kiwis do not think of any pending return "home to the motherland". This is it. Why should one portion of the Kiwi population feel any different- they have grown up in the same schools, with the same advantages? Yes there has been history, but the history that counts only goes as far back as the last generation.

[Banditbandit]

Out of interest - how are you guys typing in Maori tones? Is there some kind of crazy key combination to get those caricatures? Would be a handy thing to know.

They're macrons. My computer is set up with a keyboard programme to create them. It's also possible to use what already exists in Word. If you go into Insert and Symbols, you'll find them all there, and yiou can set up your own hot keys.

Macrons denote a long vowel sound, which changes the meaning of the word. F'r instance

"Matou" means "fish hook"

"Mātou" means "us"

You can't really write in te reo Māori without macrons.

[Banditbandit]

I think you underestimate the intelligence and worldly understanding of the leaders of the day (Maori and Pakeha at the time of the treaty) I believe that they had great vision for this country!

The problem is not with the decisions that "they" made but more to do with the behaviour of their descendants to pick up the ball and run with it! (us)

No body ever said it was going to be easy and the only contribution you have any power or control over over are the ones that you (as an individual) make yourself.

IMHO Maori wasted too much valuable time sucking up to the Labour party and if they feel disadvantaged today it is mainly down to their lack of will to shake those shackles off and the subsequent loss of self esteem that is a consequence!

Love them or hate them, I think the advent of the Maori party is the best thing that has happened to raise the Maori profile and to show a willingness to "share" in the running of the country and to pull their collective weight in the decision making process for a change!

It's a bit like never attending public meetings and then moaning about the decisions that were made in your absence!

I could be wrong but I guess you will tell me that if you think I am!

Yeah maybe .. I think the tipuna had great vision, but that was different from the colonizers vision, and the colonizsers became the majority.

I am unsure about thē rise of the Māori party. I don't disagree with what you are saying. However, holding elections is not tikanga, andf joining the colonizer's systems might not be the way forward. Note that I say I am unsure, not that I am oppossed. Like everything, it is an evolving process ...

I suppose my prime concern is that the majority of European-derived New Zealanders think that evolution should happen in the way they want .. and most Māori-derived New Zealanders see a different evolutionary path (except maybe the hard core essentialist radicals who want to remain static ..)