Islamisation

[Banditbandit]

OK sweet! Hongi (Hangi?) at my place on Saturday!! (but can I put boerewors in too?)

I dunno .. what is it, and will it cook in steam for four hours ?

I hope it's tastey.

(and the word is Hangi - hongi is to press noses in greeting)

[Oscar]

Well, it may be that I am a psuedo-intellectual, you are welcome to believe I am a prat, and I think that yes I probably am racist, despite trying consciously not to be. I don't know what the mystical caring society card is, but you're welcome to explain.

I use the Māori macros when I remember where they go, because that denounces where the long vowel sounds go. You can't say Māori is not a written language because it clearly is.

I have no intention to discount your culture Oscar. I am proud to be a New Zealander of British descent. My family have lived near the bank of the Thames for as long as we know. Down the mighty Thames river flowed boats that explored the entire world. There are many cultural traditions that I am proud of, some actions I would rather forget (but choose not to), and a bright future that I look forward to. I know how different our cultures are because I know how hard it is for me to exist in a Māori cultural space, it requires a huge shift in my fundamental views and beliefs.

Yes, there are some small amounts of Māori culture that have penetrated the institutions in this country, but I would suggest that in the most part they are tokenistic. I don't hold one culture up above another, but I still do and will continue to say that the society in this country is based almost entirely on a cultural system imposed from England. To suggest we are now 'one New Zealand' and therefore must all accept this system does not make it any less English.

I didn't say Maori wasn't a written language, it is, but it's written in English.
The use of a macron is not common in English, long vowel or not, so the use of it here is pure pedantic wankery.

You say you don't hold one culture up over another, but you were perfectly happy to denigrate the entirety of Western Civilisation. Our culture was not "imposed" by England, the culture in NZ is unique - a combination of Polynesian, English, Welsh, Scots, Croatian, Asian and so on.

Where is this tokenism you speak of?
If we look at Government as an example, Maori had no concept of nationhood, so what strictly Maori input could be tendered? Where does the tokenism exist in the electoral system, apart from the positive aspect of Maori seats?

[Oscar]

Perhaps you could rally people for some balance and there could be a fierce morris dance before sporting events too?

I didn't say that - I said that if the strictly Western concept - the National Anthem - was sung in Maori, how come the haka couldn't have some English language components. The Morris Dance is a Southern tradition which has fuck all to do with my heritage and further exposes your cultural ignorance.

[Banditbandit]

Doesn't work that way, never has.
Culture is merged, and evolved. With each generation.
There would be strong elements of Maori in NZ culture, but in a 100 years time don't also be surprised if there are elements of Japanese, Korean, American.... in the NZ culture.
Don't feel too ripped off - this is happening all over the world. Be proud of Maori culture - As it has lasted the last 100 years of this change, and looks to be in use for the next 100. In the names of places, the festivals we celebrate, the culture and folk tales we tell.
But as for Maori being the only true NZ culture.......be prepared to isolate the country. As far as I know - Cuba is the only country that has reduced this change over time.

Of course it doesn't work that way. I was being a little shocking to make a point ...

My ancestors who came here on the waka were not Māori - they were Pacific Islanders. They evolved a culture here dictated by the environment etc. New foods, new building material, new fishing methods - all needing new names and a new language ...

My ancestors from the British Isles are known as Anglo-Saxons, and had a culture. That culture starts as Picts and Jutes, adds Celts, Romans, Vikings, Saxons, Normans, Angles, etc etc ... but now England has basically one culture at the macro level ... abnd the language is English (one of the most polyglot languages on the planet)

I wonder what New Zealand will look like in 100 years - or maybe 500 years ?

As John Tamihare has said, race relations in this country are being sorted out in the bedrooms of this country. That's happened all round the world as populations move, conflict and merge. We just like sleeping with each other.

Trends in New Zealand's birth rates show that European-derived New Zealanders are not having babies at a level to sustain the population, while Māori and Pacific Island birth rates are higher than sustain level and th ppulation is growing. This probably means that the future New Zealand culture will be a modern Polynesian Culture (Pacific Islands and Māori) with elements of European-derived culture, and additions of Korean, Chinese (Many chnese families have been here longer than many European-derived families) and others ...

I love African food. One joy was to discover there's an Afrikaans-quisine restaurant near here. I listen to world-beat music, especially Africa - my own cooking comes from Italy -pasta - Europe - love lotkas for breakfast - Pākehā New Zealand - Sunday roast - and Māori - good boil up at least once a week - I speak both English very well and Māori - growing so what's the culture of my house? New Zealand culture of course.


What I do see is that most Pākehā New Zealanders expect Māori to behave in particular ways - to be part of white New Zealand culture - and that is simply perpetrating the colonizing system. And after 200 years of it, we're sick of it - and it's time the recent immigrant population woke up to itself.

[Banditbandit]

We are of 1 people. We are kiwi.

You see, right there we disagree. I agree with most of what else you say ..
But we are NOT one people .. we are Becoming one people ... the question is On who's terms are we becoming one people ? And right now the answer is Pākehā New Zealanders' trerms .. that's stil colonization of a peoples ... Pākehā New Zealand has all the power and it's forcing others to adopt is ways of being.

[rustyrobot]

I didn't say that - I said that if the strictly Western concept - the National Anthem - was sung in Maori, how come the haka couldn't have some English language components. The Morris Dance is a Southern tradition which has fuck all to do with my heritage and further exposes your cultural ignorance.

It was meant to be a joke. And you are right, I am culturally ignorant of North England. Also Burkina Faso, the Ukraine, Noumea, French Guyana and a many other places. My limited knowledge of Northern English culture basically stems from Coronation Street and a month spent in Leeds.

[Bald Eagle]

It's probably time everybody got over themselves. We are all stuck on this planet together whether we like it or not and squabbling among ourselves is not going to achieve anything, except a lot of rich lawyers.

I consider myself a pacific islander ( I was born on an island in the Pacific - the north island )

My ancestors also came here on waka - a big one with sails.

[rustyrobot]

I didn't say Maori wasn't a written language, it is, but it's written in English.

I believe that is called the Latin alphabet, also known as the Roman alphabet. It is the most commonly used alphabet in the world today, and has no exclusive connection with the English language.

[Banditbandit]

That is such condescending bullshit.
The mere fact that you are talking about a "Western Anglo-Saxon Worldview" shows how pitiful your grasp on the subject is. I was born in the North of England and our culture is as vibrant and unique as any other - why you'd group it with the entire Western European culture is beyond me. It's like me grouping Maori with all of Polynesia. We have a connection to the land that goes back before Maori had left Asia, and a history as rich as any other. So stop trying to play the mystical caring society card, which is nothing unique and just makes you look like the pseudo-intellectual racist prat that you no doubt are. .

As for NZ Society, it isn't European and it isn't Maori, it's a blend of both.

Oh, and BTW - there was never any written Maori language, so please explain why you have the cultural insensitivity to insist on your own pronunciations and this macron bullshit in a language that you have borrowed from my people. After all - do I get a say in what's carved in the meeting house? And if I have to sing the National Anthem in Maori (which I quite like), why isn't some of the Haka done in English?

OK, so first of all, we did not borrow the language from you. Your linguists used the alphabet to write down our language. And the alphabet was borrowd from the Arabs anyway ... Macrons are important as they change the meanings of words. I am sure that you would like clarity in a language ? So Tāra is "dollar" tara is "cunt". I am sure that if I was asking you how many dollars you needed you would not want me to ask how many cunts you needed.

Why do we insist on our pronunciations? Because we insist on people saying words properly - as no doubt you would in English ... No doubt you would be offended if we pronounced you name wrongly. There are dialectical differences of course, just as there are across the British Isles.

Secondly when we talk about cultures there are many levels. At the macro level when we talk of English culture it is a necessarily generalised statement, with the kinds of anomoloies you point out inherent and accepted in the discussion. At the level of smaller groups and down to the micro level, we can tak about the culture of a particular corporation, of a small community, of a group of scattered people doing similar things - such as the culture of bikers ... You need to acknowledge the framework of the discussion.

We group it with the other European and European-derived cultures because at the macro level, it is the colonizing culture that holds all the power in this country. Just as you group all iwi and all hapū under "Māori" culture. That leads to a massive misconception that all Māori have identical cultures. They don't. It's the same issue .. Generalizations are necessary - as long as we recognise the problems inherent in that generalisation.

[Oscar]

I believe that is called the Latin alphabet, also known as the Roman alphabet. It is the most commonly used alphabet in the world today, and has no exclusive connection with the English language.

Bullshit - the alphabet may be Latin, but the Maori language was translated to its written form by English Missionaries, adapting English pronunciation and spelling forms to Maori.

[Banditbandit]

That is such condescending bullshit.
The mere fact that you are talking about a "Western Anglo-Saxon Worldview" shows how pitiful your grasp on the subject is. I was born in the North of England and our culture is as vibrant and unique as any other - why you'd group it with the entire Western European culture is beyond me.

Sorry - one more thing There's a bloody good chance that you share in what RustyRobot terms the "Western Anglo-Saxon Worldview" ... that doesn't conflict with having a culture that is unique to your area and your community.

[Banditbandit]

I thought this thread was about Islamisation? Is it now about Maori and WASPS?

Good morning. I hijacked it ... didn't intend to ... but that's what happened ..

[rustyrobot]

Our culture was not "imposed" by England

Ummmmm. I really don't know what to say to that Oscar. You seem to have conveniently forgotten 150+ years of New Zealand history.

Or perhaps I'm forgetting the bit where English people were invited here and then there was lengthy discussion about which would be the primary language and religion, how the land would be used, how we might structure our governance (rangatiratanga) in a way which best suited both cultural perspectives and what form of health, education, justice and social system might best reflect those perspectives too.

[Oscar]

Secondly when we talk about cultures there are many levels. At the macro level when we talk of English culture it is a necessarily generalised statement, with the kinds of anomoloies you point out inherent and accepted in the discussion. At the level of smaller groups and down to the micro level, we can tak about the culture of a particular corporation, of a small community, of a group of scattered people doing similar things - such as the culture of bikers ... You need to acknowledge the framework of the discussion.

We group it with the other European and European-derived cultures because at the macro level, it is the colonizing culture that holds all the power in this country. Just as you group all iwi and all hapū under "Māori" culture. That leads to a massive misconception that all Māori have identical cultures. They don't. It's the same issue .. Generalizations are necessary - as long as we recognise the problems inherent in that generalisation.

Grouping all Western cultures together, is in equal parts stupid and insulting.

So instead of this superior "we're so different, and you can't understand us because you have no culture" bullshit - why don't you actually tell us where the differences lie?

[Banditbandit]

Our culture was not "imposed" by England,

What do you mean by "Our Culture"?

The English forced a lot of culture change on my Scottish and Irish ancestors ... and were well practised at it by the time they gotr here to impose it on my Māori ancestors ...