Islamisation

[R-Soul]

Maybe I was too obtuse.
Islam states it is expected of believers to kill infidels (ie non muslims) - a few of quotes: (there are many like this)
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

well since Christians and Jews worship the same God, that rules out most of the world as their next target....

[R-Soul]

Btw I haven't heard of an uprising by all the doctor type people against the extremists to stop the fanatics using their religion as an excuse to maim and kill. Although from what I read here the writings do make it easy for the extremists to operate?

well I dont see too many christians doing an uprising and stopping those American fanatics from destroying peples lives in countries that have bugger all to do with them either...

the fact is that moderates cannot be relied upon to do anything other than go upon their daily lives and try and get along - hence the term "moderate"

[R-Soul]

How about this.

Can anyone tell me who this quote is from

But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

From documents that "do not officially exist" at the heart of the pentagon?

[R-Soul]

Surely then its up to the majority to rise up against the few that are giving their religion a very bad image. Even if its just more strongly publicly condemning their actions?

so why aren't you throwing rocks at Americans? Whats your excuse?

[R-Soul]

But they are not portrayed very well publicly.

Well thats because videos of normal muslims going about normal dy to day stuff would be quite boring wouldn'tit?

They are shown to have mass prayer sessions Midday and at sunset (ish)?

How awful of them! Nearly as bad as not eating fish on a Friday!!

They are shown (at say at wake) to be out of control with grief not individually but as a mass

The specific circumstances of Iraq - notably high poverty of (especially) subsistence farmers tryng to scarth an existence out of the desert - mean that people are VERY community based. A person living in a slum shack township in South Africa put it into perspective for me. He said "One day, they dont have money, and we feed their children, the next day, we dont have money and they feed ours." When a person in a community dies, it has a large effect on all.

Also, when a US "smart bomb" happens to wipe out an entire wedding party, or the whole fucking market place - you can hardly blame the poor cunts for feeling grief "as a mass", can you? Jeez have you no imaginaton of what they must be going through? can you really not put yourself in their position and see through their eyes, and feel what they would feel?

and they are shown to have nothing but the desire to kill their own people ( and ours) in the name of god?

I tell you this: If a foreign power (or anyone for that matter- including my own government) had to wipe out my family and my existence on a scale that has been happening willy-nilly in Iraq on a daily basis, I would not rest until I had inflicted a similar misery on those that caused it. Revenge is a fairly natural human emotion. They claim its in the name of God - and maybe it is in the name of fairness and justice (which strangely enough equates with God to them?)

Its very hard not to think the Iraq/muslim part of the world is not filled with complete and utter nutters?? As I say I have never been there or even know any Muslims so the jury is out for me, but the look isn't good, thats for sure!

I also believe that the sensationalist taboid press has a lot to answer for. If you had to go according to some news reports, you would say tht 80% of muslims are all suicide bombers.

Meanwhile, ther are probably a group of about 20 desperate miserable individuals (that have probably had their lives and families forcibly removed from them by fuckups as described above) worldwide that would be willing to do this, maybe 2% of islamic followers that can be regarded as being fundamentalist in nature, and 98% (of some 1,2 BILLION people according to wikipedia) that just get on with their daily lives with no fuss and tolerance of others.

Your statements are sweeping in the extreme (ridiculously so).

[Reckless]

so why aren't you throwing rocks at Americans? Whats your excuse?

I'm not throwing rocks at any one and was very careful not to do so?

Your statements are sweeping in the extreme (ridiculously so).

What like this??

Look I don't even know any Muslims so I don't like or dislike them or their religion. .

I made no statements, all my posts where observations put out for comment and where generally started with "they are portrayed as" or "they are shown to". Which is true, our media does not create a very good image of the situation over there. A lot of your responses are very valid and I agree with some of your points.
They can have mass prayer sessions and eat fish any day they want and I never said what they did was aweful as you imply? to twist my words and meaning in that way is just bullshit. That particular portion of your post was way out of context.

I could go through a lot of peoples posts on KB and pull out individual lines and ignore ones like this

Anyway I knew it would create interesting discussion I really don't have to strong a view on the subject

and create an image other than what was intended.

Here's another one but it doesn't support the case your trying to present

As I say I have never been there or even know any Muslims so the jury is out for me,?

Where you having a bad night??

[Rogue Rider]

well since Christians and Jews worship the same God, that rules out most of the world as their next target....

Islam is formed on the Torah which is the same book as the original Bible, thence one would have to argue they worship the same God, but the Prophets have differing ideologies....... Why can't people just agree to disagree and live in harmony...... cause blowin each other up is soooo much fun.......... Sad very sad.

I don't call myself or profess to be a "Christian" I do on the other hand believe in God, and that Christ did his work and wonders. I leave the rest for personal revelation. The Torah and Koran have some great teachings, but like any, they can be taken out of context, manipulated and contorted to the wim of any extremist.
I only hope that NZ will keep right out of the spotlight and stay an awesome holiday destination/ paradise.

[pete376403]

Interestingly enough, it is not the extremist islamists that have been doing the invading of copuntries recently... so lets keep things real here...

'Spose it depends how you define invading. In the usual sense, by force of arms, Islamists haven't invaded lately, but if you consider mass immigration as a form of invasion by stealth, then yep, they're invading.

[Oscar]

'Spose it depends how you define invading. In the usual sense, by force of arms, Islamists haven't invaded lately, but if you consider mass immigration as a form of invasion by stealth, then yep, they're invading.

Bullshit
How many have we let in over the last ten years?
5,000?

You don't invade with 5,000 refugees.
These people are running from hard line regimes and some are in fear of their life, and you say they're invading?
You're a real prince...

[avgas]

They did a lot of things 150 years ago that we no longer thing were a good idea!

Pretty much any nation in the world has that against them.
We should be so thank-full that there are not French or American concessions in NZ.

[SS90]

Bullshit
How many have we let in over the last ten years?
5,000?

You don't invade with 5,000 refugees.
These people are running from hard line regimes and some are in fear of their life, and you say they're invading?
You're a real prince...

As long as they assimilate into the NZ culture (my experience is that Somalian refugees do not assimilate for example), I have no problem

I am 33 years old, and I can remember when I was 6 or 7, starting to notice more and more Indian immigration to NZ.

Basically, I grew up with, and went to school with a small percentage of these children.

They spoke with the same dialect as me and my "natural Kiwi mates", had the same sense of humor, the only difference was that (oddly enough) their mum and dad owned the local dairy, when you went to their house for dinner it was vegetarian curry, and they had darker skin that the darkest of your Maori mates.

They where, born in NZ, and I always feel a little jealous that they had a rich culture, and our Kiwi culture is that we "have no culture" (we actually don't, compared to almost every other nation)

The key to this is "does a group of immigrants assimilate, or separate?"

I believe, no matter what the back ground of a group of immigrants, if they show a willingness to become part of NZ, generally speaking, they do become accepted, quickly.

For example, if you invite your new neighbor (of middle eastern decent) to a BBQ, and their answer is "No thanks, it's the fast of 1000 Virgins", then you sure as shit are not going to invite them again, are you.... However, if they say "sure, I would love to come, but it is the fast of 1000 virgins, and my family and I will not be able to consume any food, and, by the way, we don't drink alcohol any way, but we will see you and 7pm", then, in reality, they are compromising and showing their willingness to accept that they live in secular NZ.

I am all for an education class for all immigrants coming to NZ, that identify as a Muslum, encouraging them to act in such a way.

They would not be so tolerant if it was the other way round!

[emaN]

They would not be so tolerant if it was the other way round!

Ain't that the truth!
Try setting up a church over "there" & keeping all your digits and/or limbs intact, let alone holding onto your life!

[Oscar]

As long as they assimilate into the NZ culture (my experience is that Somalian refugees do not assimilate for example), I have no problem

I am 33 years old, and I can remember when I was 6 or 7, starting to notice more and more Indian immigration to NZ.

Basically, I grew up with, and went to school with a small percentage of these children.

They spoke with the same dialect as me and my "natural Kiwi mates", had the same sense of humor, the only difference was that (oddly enough) their mum and dad owned the local dairy, when you went to their house for dinner it was vegetarian curry, and they had darker skin that the darkest of your Maori mates.

They where, born in NZ, and I always feel a little jealous that they had a rich culture, and our Kiwi culture is that we "have no culture" (we actually don't, compared to almost every other nation)

The key to this is "does a group of immigrants assimilate, or separate?"

I believe, no matter what the back ground of a group of immigrants, if they show a willingness to become part of NZ, generally speaking, they do become accepted, quickly.

For example, if you invite your new neighbor (of middle eastern decent) to a BBQ, and their answer is "No thanks, it's the fast of 1000 Virgins", then you sure as shit are not going to invite them again, are you.... However, if they say "sure, I would love to come, but it is the fast of 1000 virgins, and my family and I will not be able to consume any food, and, by the way, we don't drink alcohol any way, but we will see you and 7pm", then, in reality, they are compromising and showing their willingness to accept that they live in secular NZ.

I am all for an education class for all immigrants coming to NZ, that identify as a Muslum, encouraging them to act in such a way.

They would not be so tolerant if it was the other way round!

What people seem to forget is that there have been Muslims in NZ for a long, long time.
It's just that the latest wave looks/dresses a bit different and therefore stands out.

The speed of assimilation seems to vary from group to group, and as alluded to above, some are more visible than others. Also what we take as being Muslim traits are actually cultural ones - a Somali probably only has religion in common with a Fijian Indian so they are as diverse as say, an English Protestant and a Catholic Croatian.

[Oscar]

Ain't that the truth!
Try setting up a church over "there" & keeping all your digits and/or limbs intact, let alone holding onto your life!

Where's "there"?

[rustyrobot]

They where, born in NZ, and I always feel a little jealous that they had a rich culture, and our Kiwi culture is that we "have no culture" (we actually don't, compared to almost every other nation)

Na, we just believe that the way we do everything is 'normal', and the way other people do things is 'culture'. I would suggest that this is racist, but can't be bothered dealing with the barrage of denial. Perhaps I could say 'ignorant' then?

Try setting up a church over "there" & keeping all your digits and/or limbs intact, let alone holding onto your life!

If only we responded the same way to loopy chriso evangelists eh?!