Originally Posted by
R-Soul
Yeah you just did that too by refusing to deal wit the Maoris having oppressed the previous polulation too...
I have not - I would LOVE to visit a Marae and understand the culture better. Why do Marae's not actually offer livie in vacations, where foreigners come and live on Marae and learn to follow the traditions for a month? it would make an awesome adventure/working holiday, and provide some strong backs for whatever projects are going ion in the Marae.
OK I am just going to go ahead and say it then - because I am an undeucated foreigner, white and maybe I can be excused (although I will probably take a hiding for this): What did the Maori culture have at the time that was worth keeping over the British one? The system of governance? I dont know what teh Maoris had at the time - I'm not sure if the Brits woul dhave been partial to going back to feudal chieftianship? The education system (I dont know what they had)? Clothing? Technology (probably not)?
Hmm .. quite a lot really .. but it's more about the systems and values. Māori political systems are more consensual than western ones (and I use the word Western guardedly ...) There was certainly a lot that needed to be changed - the issue is by whom? To force a culture to change as was done is colonization - and by the time NZ was colonized a lot of European and American writers were saying it was wrong ... so to say, as has been mentioned, that the attitudes of the time were racist is not totally correct.
And one reading of the Declaration of Independence is that the eoploe who signed it were envisioning a federal system - The United States of New Zealand - each iwi as a state .. what an interesting idea .. so they wanted to change, and they saw the model of the USA and wanted to adopt that - not what they got.
Education - Yes the tipuna had an education system. They wanted it to change. They wanted their children to be taught to be doctors and lawyers. The white governmenttrained them to be farm labourers and domestic servants. Māori wanted it to change - but not the way the white colonizers changed it.
And other peoples have been yaken over by invaders. But have not had their systems wiped out by ther invaders. Imperial Rome did not rule that way. Colonization as it occured in the 18th and 19th Century - especially the later part - was of a different nature. It was the deliberate impostion of European ways on other populations - The White Man's Burden (Cecil Rhodes 'n all). And if imposition didn't work then genocide would. And it has different long-term consequences.
Originally Posted by
R-Soul
Its like when a corporation takes over another one. The reason that it is taking over in the first place, is because it was more efficient as certain important things.
The Maoris were not prevented from carrying on in their own culture were they? I understand them being miffed that they were prevented from taking part in the British on- but as I explained in the previous post, my understanding was that they were relatively well treated (compared to some). Those were the times. I am not saying they were good, but they just were.
This is true ... there weren't the genocidal policies of North America or Australia - nor the racist crap of Southern Africa (South Africa/Zimbabwe) however, colonization occured - Māori were relegated to the low socio-economic groups and suffer from the same consequences - substance abuse, violence, criminal behaviour, poor health, poor educational outcomes ... And before the hard liners jump in .. reasons are NOT the same as excuses ... all these things occur in South Africa, Zimbabwe, Algeria, Australia, North America ....
Originally Posted by
R-Soul
And now that the actual colonial governors are long gone, all kids have equal opportunity, and anyone could be whatever they want. I dont understand the Maori greviance now?
Have they gone? White European-descent people still rule here. And they still look and behave like colonizers ... When Helen Clarke was mistreated at Waitangi a few years ago she said "How dare they treat me that way?" Exactly the words of Governor Grey in the 19th century. The Pākehā-driven Government still thinks it can decide what is best for Māori .. a totally condesending point of view - a colonizers point of view - a Great White Father position. The colonizers are still here.
Originally Posted by
R-Soul
I am still trying to understand what you mean by underlying culture (although I understand how cultures can be different given my background in SA - for example; the concept of indivvidual ownership in black tribes is foreign - it is all abouty family ownership. The concept of "rape" is also foreign- it is regarded as an insult to FAMILY honour - and as long as the "event" is made up for by a tribute to the family's honour, then there seems to be no worries). Can you give examples?
You ouitline a few examples. I'd say it is in the values and worldview which is expressed through the culture. Let's see ...
The Bible (Genesis chapter one) gives Man dominion over the whole of the earth. While Chrtianity may have a lessening influence on our culture, the view that we canexploit the world - and we do - comes directly from that. The Māori worldview has no such basis for exploiting our world.
The western view of the world, again derived from Christianity (and probably the atheists will jump in here ... don't bother) is of three levels, a heaven above, a hell below and the world in between ... Māori worldview is based in one - Te Ao Marama ... there is no distinction between the spiritual worlds and this world .. it's all one ...
There is nowhere in Te Ao Marama which is profane ... it's all sacred because it was all created as a process from Io through Rangi and Papa to the Atua and then people ... Only parts of this world are sacred to western eyes. The rest is all profane and can be exploited (so they do)
In Māori terms, People were created as part of a natural process, as part of this world. In Christianity we were created at the whim of an all-powerful God as an add-on.
There is no concept of sin in Māori terms. There is no God handing out rules. You can do things wrongly - but that's not the same concept.
Death in the Māōri world is a natural event and not to be feared. Western people are afrraid of dying - Genesis sets up death as a punishment - and after death, according the Christians, we can still be unished at the whim of some being we have never met ... No wonder the western world is fullof the fear of death .. even for non-Christians ...
And so on ... Does that help ?
I'm gone till Wednesday - please don't kill each other ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
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