Islamisation

[Banditbandit]

So tell me. Was the plan just complaining about everything?
I agree with the statement. But not even the world wars had a grieving period this long.

I'm a little reluctant to reenter this debate .. however ...

Asked any Jews how long their grieving period has been/will be ?

[Banditbandit]

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

One of the rare cases where I agree with you in the main, though. Especially the bit about "leading by example". Whatever happened to the cry, "Follow me!" as they charged off into battle..? Let the clergy and the pollies fight the battles, after all they're the ones who want the fight, aren't they?

I never realized you were a communist ...

[Swoop]

31 August, 2010: Afganistan. On August 25th, for the eighth time this year, students and staff at a girls high school were injured by some kind of poison gas. In the latest incident, nine teachers and 46 students were hospitalized. They were all dizzy, and a few were unconscious. But there did not appear to be any permanent damage. The first of these attacks occurred last year, and there have been eleven so far. Blood tests do not indicate what the poison agent could be. American chemical weapons experts were involved in some of the investigations, but have not announced any findings. There have been suggestions that this might be some kind of mass hysteria, but since it also involves adults as well, and all tell the same story of smelling something strange before falling, the hysteria angle is unlikely.

Most doctors at the hospitals agree that it was some kind of poison, but have not been able to identify it yet. All the victims smelled something odd while at school, then fell ill, with some of the students and teachers losing consciousness. The Taliban have been known to attack girls schools, including injuring or killing students with gunfire, explosives and, in at least one case, acid thrown into the faces of students. Now it appears that poison gas has been added to the Taliban arsenal.

The Taliban do not believe in education for girls (which they believe is forbidden by Islam), but do believe in chemical weapons (which they do not believe is forbidden by Islam). When the Taliban ran Afghanistan in the late 1990s, they hosted al Qaeda, and al Qaeda set up a chemical warfare research facility. If the Taliban are using some kind of poisonous chemical for these attacks, they could have obtained from their better educated friends in al Qaeda. The Taliban are very much against education for girls, and prohibited it from 1996-2001. Millions of Afghan girls are now in school, and the Taliban are very angry about it.

[rustyrobot]

The Taliban can go f**k themselves. But not every muslim is in the Taliban.

Liberal and Muslim in the Same Sentence? 'Tis Very Possible
The media and our history books feed us prefabricated ideas on how the Middle East is a closed, conservative bubble. It's a breeding ground for religious extremists and women have virtually no rights. But this is all
wrong.

One cannot simply group countries across three different continents into the same category as radicals. While it is true that some nations such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have strict control over their people's lives, many Arabs enjoy a liberal lifestyle. The following are the most liberal Middle Eastern countries in the world, according to the State of the World Liberty Index.

Jordan - Freedom of religion is upheld in this small state of 5.8 million people; Christians and Jews are allowed to worship freely and they are officially recognized. Women are allowed to serve as cabinet ministers and the Jordanian government is working towards raising the percentage of women in public service. Women are not required to wear the veil, but in some places they wear it out of fear of being ostracized.

United Arab Emirates - Its GDP per capita is the 5th highest in the world and it has the fastest growing economy in the world. It is not a surprise than neighboring Saudis drive into Dubai and other parts of the UAE for the weekend. The clubs, bars, movie theatres, and world class shopping are abundant and control over print media is lax. Christians, Jews, and Hindi can practice their religions freely in this oasis of liberty in the desert of Islamic conservativeness we call the Middle East.

Turkey - This very secular and democratic Islamic nation has ties with the West through organizations such as NATO and is currently seeking entrance into the European Union. Its constitution protects all religions from discrimination; In particular, the Turkish strive for secularism can be viewed in their law that prohibits religious head garments being worn in government buildings, schools, and universities. The Turkish government invests a good portion of its funds into the promotion of fine arts, theatre, and architecture, moving its popular culture closer to that of Europe's.

Kuwait - It seems like a juxtaposition to have such a liberal Islam state be situated right next to troubled Iraq just to the north and the totalitarian kingdom of
Saudi Arabia to the west, though its geography does not let it hinder its liberties. Kuwait has one of the most vocal media in the Middle East, allowing the flexibility to Kuwaiti journalists to even criticize the government. Human rights in Kuwait have improved with the country's recent abiding to UN standards.

Bahrain - Its wealth is distributed amongst its middle class, making Bahrain more liberal than its mainland cousins. Religious tolerance is widespread with synagogues peacefully residing next to mosques. It is a Mecca for shopping and vacationing as is Dubai and is lax about alcohol sales and consumption. Bahrain can be said to be the most Western-friendly Muslim nation with the splash of "Arabness" that travels look for when they come. Though Bahrain is the most liberal Muslim nation in the world, people have been arrested for kissing on the lips in public.

-------------

I have NO interest in Sharia law or Islamic religious teachings personally. I just worry about people being stirred into hatred and the sort of mob mentality that follows (sorta like the Taliban)

[SS90]

[QUOTE=Swoop;1129849076]31 August, 2010: Afganistan. On August 25th, for the eighth time this year, students and staff at a girls high school were injured by some kind of poison gas. In the latest incident, nine teachers and 46 students were hospitalized. They were all dizzy, and a few were unconscious. But there did not appear to be any permanent damage. The first of these attacks occurred last year, and there have been eleven so far. Blood tests do not indicate what the poison agent could be. American chemical weapons experts were involved in some of the investigations, but have not announced any findings. There have been suggestions that this might be some kind of mass hysteria, but since it also involves adults as well, and all tell the same story of smelling something strange before falling, the hysteria angle is unlikely.[quote]


I always find the Taliban an interesting subject - I mean we all know that their hard core Muslim approach to life is unbelievable, but as I understand it, while there are serious civil rights issues one of a few things that they did do right was controlling the Poppy growth (thereby Heroin supply) in Afgahnistan.

I believe that they came close to stopping all poppy growth in one season

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/wo...aides-say.html

Now, as I understand it, the poppy trade is "back in business", but they put the ban in place, based on the fact that "growing poppys is a sin against god"

[Banditbandit]

Doh!

Stupid internet search engines.... but I assue you the link was removed hours after I first posted it.Let us not forget that theis woman will now cost us $90,000 per year to keep locked up...... first class plane ticket "home"..... $4000 maybe?

Perhaps I am coming across as rasist, I assure yoou I am not, I am simply a realist.

NZ is a Mecca (excuse the pun) for pretty much anyone (we are not perfect, but much closer to perfect than most other countries), and I want to reap the rewrds of living a nice happy life when I come home.

If we keep filling it with dependent bludgers like this woman, as well as having huge muslim communities, (let us never forget that the Muslim faith teaches them to kill anyone who is not of their faith...no matter how much the "moderates" try to tell us all otherwise),

What would it take to convince you that is simply not true? Can you point to the Sura or Suras in the Koran that support that?

"Infidels" are non-believers - but the Koran also says that "People of the Book" meaning Jews and Christians - are not infidels, because they follow the the writings of the people Islam acknowledges as true prophets - from Abraham to Jesus ... and they are to be respected.

True, Islam also asks it followers to fight and die to protect Islam ... but in this century, who attacked Islam .. George W Bush declared the fight a New Crusade ... the people there freaked out because the previous invaders, of the Middle Ages, killed and ATE Muslims ...

See the Massacre at Ma'arra ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'arrat_al-Numan

Of coure Islam was freaked out .. "Uh Oh .. here come the cannibals to invade our country again ... " Wouldn't you defend New Zealand if that happened here ?

If you lived in Iraq during the late 1990s and watched your children die from ordinary diseases because the USA blockaded the country and refused to allow basic medicines to be delivered wouldn't you be really pissed at the USA ?

Doesn't matter if you're a Muslim or a Christian .. you'd be pissed because you're a Father ...

If you were a Palestinian father who watched your pregnant wife and unborn child die in an ambulance at the Israeli Checkpoint because the Jews made the ambulance wait for six hours in a queue and refused the expidite its passage would you be pissed off enought tro kill Jews ?

If you thought your country was sacred soil and the place of prophets wouldn't you be very pissed off if another country and followers of a different religion polluted that sacred soil with huge numbers of armed troops wouldn't you be pissed off ? The "terrorists" on the planes that hit the World Trade Center certainly were ... they weren't pissed of at Christianity - nor were they trying to convert the world - they were pissed off because their country - their sacred soil - was invaded by a foreign power ... and they were hitting back ...

The USA powers and the media say "Muslim Terrorist" ... I see angry people .. angry fathers and mothers ... doesn't matter what religion they are ...

If anyone invaded New Zealand we would all fight them .. does it matter why they invaded? The invaders might say they are coming the "save" us .. did we invite them ? No? Would we fight ? Hell Yes ... would we only fight them here or would we try to fight them in their own country ? I'd go for their country ... in any way I could ...

Are we really much different ?

And the woman who has just been convicted of hijacking has huge mental health issues - because of what she has seen and experienced in her country of birth (not surprising she got out) - she hijacked the plane because of her mental health issues - not because she was Muslim ...

I just don't want to see a Mosk (I know that is the incorrect spelling) on every street corner, the reality is every single city in the world that has a Mosk on every street corner, is under the rule of Islam..... and that I do not want for NZ's future.

Does it mean then, that because we have a church on every street corner the country is under the rule of the Curistians ? Ask any fundamentalist Christian and they will rail against the current secular/socialist Government.

It's not the people I resent, nor the concept of their religion.

It is the rules by that which they live.....This I cannot accept for my or my familys future.

I feel the same way about Christianity ... and no, I'm not Muslim either ... But you're also lumping every Musim believer into the same misleading group ... not all Muslims live by the rules the Tailban do ... not all Christains live by the same rules - there are Exclusive Brethern, Catholics, Destiny Church - all have their own rules - Christians can't agree on the rules. Islam is no different - and in Afghanistan, many Musilim grouips fought the Taliban ...

And don't forget ... there are extremist groups in many Muslim countries attacking their own people and governmetns because it is "not Muslim enough" ... the fundamentalist radicals are just as much a problem for Islamic counties as for the rest of the world ...

People can SAY "oh, they are just extremist....... but we don't interpret it like that", but, is that true? and, how can we be sure, how can we "scan" for this..... I say "better safe than sorry"

We would never allow a cult to set up in NZ that, in it's doctrine had "kill all people that aren't us", that would be shut down asap by the powers that be.

They're been several homegrown cults that thought like that .. and yes, the Government/Police acted ... there will be more ... they are usually Christian tho'

Go here to read about Metcalf/s crazy bunch ...

Try a searxch for "Full Gospel Mission" and "Camp David"

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Now I just have to find out who the they are that Nighthawk is banging on about.

Follow the money...

[Banditbandit]

I always find the Taliban an interesting subject - I mean we all know that their hard core Muslim approach to life is unbelievable, but as I understand it, while there are serious civil rights issues one of a few things that they did do right was controlling the Poppy growth (thereby Heroin supply) in Afgahnistan.

I believe that they came close to stopping all poppy growth in one season

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/wo...aides-say.html

Now, as I understand it, the poppy trade is "back in business", but they put the ban in place, based on the fact that "growing poppys is a sin against god"

Yes, the Taliban stopped the growth of opium poppies ... it nearly destroyed the economy of many regions .. then the Taliban asked America for economic help to restore the economy by replacing poppies with other crops ... and America refused to help ... despite demanding that the Afghan Governmetn stop the growth of poppies .. and despite the Taliban putting that into action ...

I wonder what the world would be like if America had helped ?

[Edbear]

I never realized you were a communist ...

Nah, just don't believe in sending innocent people to fight my own battles for me.

[avgas]

I'm a little reluctant to reenter this debate .. however ...
Asked any Jews how long their grieving period has been/will be ?

Nope - but then again I haven't had to pay for any of their grieving, so in reality its a bit in the peripheral.
They also don't seem to be asking for anything except acknowledgment, which I think is fair enough.
Seems even though they have grieved (or are still grieving) they have also moved on a bit.
Perhaps a lesson could be found here?
Seeing as your all about looking at the past, and learning from it.

[shrub]

Nope - but then again I haven't had to pay for any of their grieving, so in reality its a bit in the peripheral.
They also don't seem to be asking for anything except acknowledgment, which I think is fair enough.
Seems even though they have grieved (or are still grieving) they have also moved on a bit.
Perhaps a lesson could be found here?
Seeing as your all about looking at the past, and learning from it.

It's not so much grieving as milking. When was the last time we heard about grieving over the ethnic cleansing in Ruanda? Or over the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodian civillians who died in the 60s and 70s? Or in Central America in 80s? Or the ethnic cleansing and forced imprisonment of milions of Palestinans? These were all equally horrendous crimes against humanity that have occurred within my memory, yet they're largely forgotten.

In the meantime the Israelis milk the Holocaust as much as they can so they get aid and support to build their "homeland" in Palestine with (predominantly) US money, and in the process destabilise the entire region; which in turn destabilises the globe.

And you and I are paying for the Jewish grieving and will continue to do so for as long as the ME remains unstable.

[avgas]

It's not so much grieving as milking....(Just re-read his post you slackers)....And you and I are paying for the Jewish grieving and will continue to do so for as long as the ME remains unstable.

Bugger, so you say the lesson has been learn't just not the right one.
And we are the dumb fucks who are paying for it.
Perhaps we should learn the lesson this time? Mabey the US does have it right?

I have to admit - having a Chinese wife, has changed my perspective. Especially when she never got to meet her granddad simply due to of what went down with Mao.
Kinda scared me to find out that more people died under Mao's regime than in the whole of world war 2.

Likewise as you said Uganda, Rawanda, Laos.......
However I am sure that if you offered to these people - an exit strategy. Many would take it.

Boats from Pakistan should be evidence enough of this.

These people quite happily leave their troubled past behind them.

[mashman]

Can you point to the Sura or Suras in the Koran that support that?

Sura 4:84,88,89 : "Then fight in God's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that God will restrain the fury of the unbelievers, for God is the strongest in might and punishment ... Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds ... But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them..."

to note but 1... but from what i've read, most of this could (and has been by both sides) be taken out of context... what I mean is, that the killing and slaying seem to be in reference to those that had "defiled" Mecca and not the rest of the Pagan world that the Muslim had treaty with... but unfortunately those writings have opened the door for the future "persecution" of ALL non-muslims... hence the reason and fears expressed in the OP I guess...

[Banditbandit]

Sura 4:84,88,89 : "Then fight in God's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that God will restrain the fury of the unbelievers, for God is the strongest in might and punishment ... Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? God hath upset them for their (evil) deeds ... But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them..."

to note but 1... but from what i've read, most of this could (and has been by both sides) be taken out of context... what I mean is, that the killing and slaying seem to be in reference to those that had "defiled" Mecca and not the rest of the Pagan world that the Muslim had treaty with... but unfortunately those writings have opened the door for the future "persecution" of ALL non-muslims... hence the reason and fears expressed in the OP I guess...

Yes .. that Sura is completely misread - as you point out. To turn renegade is to leave Islam .. so the killing is to be of those who have once become Muslims, then left that faith ... it is not an exhortion to kill everyone who is not a Muslim ...

In the context of Islam, it is the pure community who goes to heaven - so any unfaithful defile the community and endanger everyone's place in the afterlife ... killing them removes them from the comunity and repurifies it ...

[mashman]

Yes .. that Sura is completely misread - as you point out. To turn renegade is to leave Islam .. so the killing is to be of those who have once become Muslims, then left that faith ... it is not an exhortion to kill everyone who is not a Muslim ...

In the context of Islam, it is the pure community who goes to heaven - so any unfaithful defile the community and endanger everyone's place in the afterlife ... killing them removes them from the comunity and repurifies it ...

So in context, we see the "conditions" of killing... in which case you'd have to agree that SS90's comment, "that the Muslim faith teaches them to kill anyone who is not of their faith...no matter how much the "moderates" try to tell us all otherwise", is actually true. Those teachings have a completely different context in this day and age and Jihad is waged against the infidel because it's excused by ones translation of a Sura... pretty fucked up if you ask me and utterly hypocritical if they cannot get their own house in order either...

Islamisation can never be a good thing if they are taught to ignore (let alone kill) anyone who is not Muslim. If the teachings are as simple as, look out for those who live the Islam way and slay/persecute the rest (of which there are plenty of persecution Sura's), then how can you expect non-Muslim people not to be sceptical when it comes to community integration? You can't if the message is hatred and mistrust...