Does drug prohibition put the police in danger and harm the public?

[scissorhands]

A complex and emotional topic for sure.

Quote from Albert Einstein:
"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."

Okay so this was coined regarding 1930's alcohol prohibition, think Chicago, tommy guns and crooked cops.

We all know from Reefer Madness that cannabis causes Mexicans and Negroes to rape white women...yeah right. So as that propaganda gives cannabis a bad name, as it also does for Mexicans and African Americans. So its obviously wrong and blatantly racist.

I'm sure everyone has heard the comment 'just give them the drugs, spend policing money on drug health policy and treatment, and they will stop stealing from us'

Personally I think Len Snee would still be with us and the 2 shot cops in CH CH (and the dog Gage) wouldnt have been in danger from drug crazed losers.

Freeing up resouces

Theft to purchase drugs would be massively reduced

Cops removed from the firing line when dealing with public of the mind that drug policy is wrong (many many citizens worldwide hold this view, not just drug users)

Health issue rather that legal issue, treatment improves for drug dependency... usually born of abuse at home (Hi Millie)

Kids have food in the fridge, family financial stresses decrease, as drugs now cost next to nothing.

Harmony within the community increase

Drug barrens and warlords stop buying police and running arms to protect drug profiteering interests

Maybe this is unpopular, but I dont think I'm wrong, and I'm no Albert Einstein. Link to some other of his saying here: http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes_by/albert+einstein

Was wondering what others think.

Albert Einstein quotes:
Today's problems cannot be solved by thinking the way we thought when we created them.
Albert Einstein quotes:
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Albert Einstein quotes:
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it.
Albert Einstein quotes:
The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses.............

[Edbear]

Ummm, no. Prohibition was a different situation and your post shows a rather naive understanding of drugs and their effects.

Certainly education is the key, as with smoking and alcohol, but there are no safe drugs and cannabis is one of the most misunderstood and lied about drugs of all. P is a very real threat to society and needs to be completely eliminated. Don't be fooled, do your own research on drugs.

For what it's worth, I personally view alcohol as a drug even though I do drink. I also won't drink enough that I lose my senses as I want to be in control of myself at all times, but that's my personal choice of course. If anyone wants to drink themselves into a stupor that's their business but at the same time they should be held responsible for the medical and Police attention. So, of course should drug users.

[slowpoke]

You sir are absolutely right.........










..........you most definitely are not Albert Einstein.

The good news is Charles Darwin would have loved to have a chat with your good self.

[HQfiend]

Decriminalise cannabis possession under a certain amount e.g. 50gms, possession above = jail time. Growing for personal consumption e.g. max. of 3 plants, over deemed to be supplier = jail time. Allow state taxed and sanctioned farms to cultivate and sell through normal 18+ avenues like liquor and tobacco with sales tax and health warnings etc. If you are found stoned in public place/driving/operating machinery/whatever then jail time. Similar structure as sale of tobacco and liquor.
Government can make a shed load of tax money and control proliferation. Social policy/conscience can dictate acceptable drug behaviour within the community, same as with drink driving etc.
Basically treat people as "your a big person now so behave like it, these are the boundaries we will place around this behaviour and if you cross them there will be serious consequences. Not the slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, bleeding heart liberal ones either!"

If the perception that consumption of cannabis is something illegal, is removed then perhaps the youth will find something else that is exciting to go and do, rather than frying their brains and screwing up their prospects for a future productive life, as it has been scientifically proven that cannabis has a detrimental effect on the still developing teenage brain, which is not reversible.

[freedom-wedge]

A complex and emotional topic for sure.

Quote from Albert Einstein:
"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this."

Okay so this was coined regarding 1930's alcohol prohibition, think Chicago, tommy guns and crooked cops.

We all know from Reefer Madness that cannabis causes Mexicans and Negroes to rape white women...yeah right. So as that propaganda gives cannabis a bad name, as it also does for Mexicans and African Americans. So its obviously wrong and blatantly racist.

I'm sure everyone has heard the comment 'just give them the drugs, spend policing money on drug health policy and treatment, and they will stop stealing from us'

Personally I think Len Snee would still be with us and the 2 shot cops in CH CH (and the dog Gage) wouldnt have been in danger from drug crazed losers.

Freeing up resouces

Theft to purchase drugs would be massively reduced

Cops removed from the firing line when dealing with public of the mind that drug policy is wrong (many many citizens worldwide hold this view, not just drug users)

Health issue rather that legal issue, treatment improves for drug dependency... usually born of abuse at home (Hi Millie)

Kids have food in the fridge, family financial stresses decrease, as drugs now cost next to nothing.

Harmony within the community increase

Drug barrens and warlords stop buying police and running arms to protect drug profiteering interests

Maybe this is unpopular, but I dont think I'm wrong, and I'm no Albert Einstein. Link to some other of his saying here: http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quotes_by/albert+einstein

Was wondering what others think.

Albert Einstein quotes:
Today's problems cannot be solved by thinking the way we thought when we created them.
Albert Einstein quotes:
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Albert Einstein quotes:
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it.
Albert Einstein quotes:
The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses.............

Abert was right then and he is still right, government policy is raising the stakes, ie more jail time in some cases than that for violent assault, some of these P freaks openly talk about shooting it out with the police now rather than doing 14 years, Your average copper who beleives in doin the right thing will have to become a killing machine in order to at least compete. Canabis laws are following the same trends and why , becuase of a far flung idea and notion once held by an equally paranoid person with influence pursueded western governments that it was an eveil that needed to be stopped just like communism. What they gonna do now when they smell dak, call the A O S and mount a full on invasion of a home ?? for a sly chuff on the back step or otherwise, the social consequences of which we all bare, along with the police and coal face workers.

[freedom-wedge]

Ummm, no. Prohibition was a different situation and your post shows a rather naive understanding of drugs and their effects.

Certainly education is the key, as with smoking and alcohol, but there are no safe drugs and cannabis is one of the most misunderstood and lied about drugs of all. P is a very real threat to society and needs to be completely eliminated. Don't be fooled, do your own research on drugs.

For what it's worth, I personally view alcohol as a drug even though I do drink. I also won't drink enough that I lose my senses as I want to be in control of myself at all times, but that's my personal choice of course. If anyone wants to drink themselves into a stupor that's their business but at the same time they should be held responsible for the medical and Police attention. So, of course should drug users.

P is a real threat to this country and others and must be stopped, canabis and the lies, well there are two side to this issue, whos been telling the porkies and for what reason.

[freedom-wedge]

Decriminalise cannabis possession under a certain amount e.g. 50gms, possession above = jail time. Growing for personal consumption e.g. max. of 3 plants, over deemed to be supplier = jail time. Allow state taxed and sanctioned farms to cultivate and sell through normal 18+ avenues like liquor and tobacco with sales tax and health warnings etc. If you are found stoned in public place/driving/operating machinery/whatever then jail time. Similar structure as sale of tobacco and liquor.
Government can make a shed load of tax money and control proliferation. Social policy/conscience can dictate acceptable drug behaviour within the community, same as with drink driving etc.
Basically treat people as "your a big person now so behave like it, these are the boundaries we will place around this behaviour and if you cross them there will be serious consequences. Not the slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, bleeding heart liberal ones either!"

If the perception that consumption of cannabis is something illegal, is removed then perhaps the youth will find something else that is exciting to go and do, rather than frying their brains and screwing up their prospects for a future productive life, as it has been scientifically proven that cannabis has a detrimental effect on the still developing teenage brain, which is not reversible.

Agreed with in the upmost, Even a lot of the police would too given the choice, they know that there is far worse that needs their attention, with your reasoning consenting adults get to police themselves or have that right taken from them.

[slofox]

There is no doubt that prohibition of anything creates a huge black market for that thing - especially something that lots of people want. And that means that lots of profit is made by those who deal in that black market.

BUT. I am not sure the cure is to remove all constraints. Judging by the way we in NZ abuse alcohol, I doubt we would have enough self-restraint to stay out of the cactus with other drugs.

Frankly, I dunno what the hell we should do.

[Edbear]

P is a real threat to this country and others and must be stopped, canabis and the lies, well there are two side to this issue, whos been telling the porkies and for what reason.

That's why I recommend doing one's own independent research on it as I have.

[scissorhands]

as i said emotive topic...

Arming Police Means More Drug War Casulties, says NORML
Friday, 16 July 2010, 1:21 pm

NORML President Phil Saxby today warned that arming all frontline police could spell more drug related violence and propel New Zealand further and deeper into the "war on drugs".

"I am very concerned by the level of ‘fighting talk’ displayed by the Police at this moment and do not want to see armed officers going into every house they come across that smells of cannabis."

Phil Saxby pointed out that official figures showed 15% of adult Kiwis use cannabis every year. "That is over 400,000 * New Zealanders put at risk and would only mean disaster for New Zealand," he said. "The Police Association has already warned that this move would actually mean more people getting shot."

"In the so-called ‘war on drugs’, some – perhaps most – of those people could be young. Someone’s teenage son or daughter is growing some cannabis for themselves in their flat when the police come knocking about something unrelated, smell drugs and come in with weapons."

"Statistically, 18 – 25 year olds are the most likely users of illegal drugs, which means as a group they are most at-risk of being caught up in any violent outcome associated with drug use."

"It might be someone’s 15 year-old who happens to be at the local tinny-shop when a raid goes down, guns drawn. This is not the New Zealand anyone wants to see."

"In the United States, warrant less searches by armed police regularly end in the suspect's fatality, often when no drugs are actually found."

"NORML has deep compassion for the shot officers and their slain dog but arming police is not the answer. Ending the criminalisation of all drugs – cannabis most urgently of all – is."

"Decriminalisation is just a beginning", says Phil Saxby. "We should be aiming at a regulated, taxable market for all low-risk drugs."

"Growing cannabis is not a violent crime but arming oneself with a gun and then using it to protect an illegal and highly valuable crop is. By regulating the supply of cannabis, we will reduce the number of situations when police will need to use guns."

[slowpoke]

Albert Einstein quotes:
Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it.

Ok, ok, serious response this time.

Drug fucked people don't make for good employees so it doesn't matter how cheap or plentiful you make drugs they won't be able to hold down a job and afford them. So your vision of a harmonious community is a not one I share

An abundance of drugs will make for a huge burden on the health/psychological/counselling systems: drugs are not exactly kind to folks' mental or physical wellbeing, and I have yet to hear of a family united by drugs despite drugs being a game the whole family can play.

Basically i don't think you could be further from the truth: in good "consience" (per Einstein) i can't agree that more drug fucked parents, more drugs in schools, more drug affected pregnancies, more drug fuelled crime, more drug related road crashes, more dysfunctaional people/families etc etc etc is a good thing.

What happened to a couple of blokes and their working companion who went off to work just as your or I do is terrible, but it's an inherent risk associated with their job, they are after all part of the Armed Services. You just hope that they are given enough training, resources and back up to perform their job in as safe a manner as possible.

It all comes back to that old saying: "Ships are safe in the harbour but that's not what ships are for."

Edit: it's all very well to say "We don't know how best to handle this" but this one of those fire fighting type scenarios where doing almost anything is better than nothing.

[Edbear]

as i said emotive topic...

Arming Police Means More Drug War Casulties, says NORML
Friday, 16 July 2010, 1:21 pm

NORML President Phil Saxby today warned that arming all frontline police could spell more drug related violence and propel New Zealand further and deeper into the "war on drugs".

"Statistically, 18 – 25 year olds are the most likely users of illegal drugs, which means as a group they are most at-risk of being caught up in any violent outcome associated with drug use.""It might be someone’s 15 year-old who happens to be at the local tinny-shop when a raid goes down, guns drawn. This is not the New Zealand anyone wants to see."

."

The problem with this reasoning is that it is not the teenagers doing the shooting, it is the older one's in their 30's+ who are heavily armed and shooting the cops.

Recent news showed the number of teenagers smoking has dropped markedly, and this surely is due to education, can anyone find figures for drug use?

[golfmade]

Majority of drugs including marijuana is HIGHLY illegal here and carries very stiff penalties. That said I'm not sure what kind of education methods are in place to inform people the effects of drug use. I have seen more news stories recently about the increased use of Meth here, which worries me as not only is the consumption dangerous but the production as well.

[SMOKEU]

When was the last time any of you heard of someone blazing up a mad as J and then going on a rampage with a gun? The drug policy in the Netherlands seems to work quite well.

[scissorhands]

Ok, ok, serious response this time.

Drug fucked people don't make for good employees so it doesn't matter how cheap or plentiful you make drugs they won't be able to hold down a job and afford them. So your vision of a harmonious community is a not one I share

An abundance of drugs will make for a huge burden on the health/psychological/counselling systems: drugs are not exactly kind to folks' mental or physical well being, and I have yet to hear of a family united by drugs despite drugs being a game the whole family can play.

Basically i don't think you could be further from the truth: in good "consience" (per Einstein) i can't agree that more drug fucked parents, more drugs in schools, more drug affected pregnancies, more drug fuelled crime, more drug related road crashes, more dysfunctaional people/families etc etc etc is a good thing.

What happened to a couple of blokes and their working companion who went off to work just as your or I do is terrible, but it's an inherent risk associated with their job, they are after all part of the Armed Services. You just hope that they are given enough training, resources and back up to perform their job in as safe a manner as possible.

It all comes back to that old saying: "Ships are safe in the harbour but that's not what ships are for."

Edit: it's all very well to say "We don't know how best to handle this" but this one of those fire fighting type scenarios where doing almost anything is better than nothing.

emotive emotive lol

Only 6% of Dutch now use Cannabis. It use has gone down after decriminalisation, not up as you postulate incorrectly. Much of the above rhetoric has no basis in fact. Sorry, but Albert Einstein is right and followers of cult religious groups are wrong...

High dose and heavy consumption causing health, safety and social problems are not authentic to any substance but the compulsive obsessive tendencies of the user. As with dogs that scratch themselves raw, battery chickens that peck their cage mates....once their needs are meet they become happy animals, we can too....