Revolting teachers!

[MikeL]

Summary of contributions so far:

1. Some people are teachers and think that teachers should be paid more.
2. Some people are not teachers but still think that teachers should be paid more because education is important.
3. Some people are not teachers and don't think that teachers should be paid more because (a) they have too many holidays; (b) they don't work nearly as many hours as proper workers; (c) they're already being remunerated handsomely; (d) we all have to tighten our belts in these straightened economic times; (e) they belong to a union; (f) they're not highly qualified; (g) "when I was at school all my teachers were bastards"; (h) some teachers are communists.
4. Some people who may or may not be teachers have researched the question thoroughly, thought deeply and based their views on facts, not prejudice, hearsay or the media, but unfortunately in most cases a computer malfunction has prevented these posts from appearing.

[Smifffy]

Teachers should strike and stay out until all of their demands are met. I'll wager it will go much like every other long drawn out industrial dispute I've ever seen.

Value Teachers!
Value Students!

Fix the curriculum
Save the whales!
Free Nelson Mandela!

[Oscar]

Tempting to say that we're getting what we made, dude. And that few professional societies or industrial representitives are happy with the standard of students attracted to their workplaces.

But I'll refrain.

It's true.
And it's a reflection of our education system.
We're getting what we pay for.
And in this case, our best and brightest are not teaching (or at least not in NZ).

[oldrider]

Summary of contributions so far:

1. Some people are teachers and think that teachers should be paid more.
2. Some people are not teachers but still think that teachers should be paid more because education is important.
3. Some people are not teachers and don't think that teachers should be paid more because (a) they have too many holidays; (b) they don't work nearly as many hours as proper workers; (c) they're already being remunerated handsomely; (d) we all have to tighten our belts in these straightened economic times; (e) they belong to a union; (f) they're not highly qualified; (g) "when I was at school all my teachers were bastards"; (h) some teachers are communists.
4. Some people who may or may not be teachers have researched the question thoroughly, thought deeply and based their views on facts, not prejudice, hearsay or the media, but unfortunately in most cases a computer malfunction has prevented these posts from appearing.

All of the above is true and wont change as long as the current situation remains the same!

Lets add on a few more points of pondering that contribute (IMHO) to this on going saga.

5. New Zealand state education is poorly managed.

6. New Zealand teachers are poorly represented.

7. Negotiations on employment remuneration and working conditions is negotiated too far away from the source of the individual working relationship.

I.E. Government negotiates with Union representatives, rather than empowering the people at the work front where the work actually gets done! ( it's akin to riding a motorcycle from the pillion seat and not actually being in control of the bike, then hiring someone to sit on the front seat to control it for you)

8. Empowerment of the work force should be directed to where the work takes place and to where the value of the work is more accurately understood and contracts should be negotiated at that manager/employee level.

9. Training for employment negotiations should be given to help participants to gain the skills and confidence to carry this out successfully and review the situation on an annual basis. (Unions can be used to assist their members to obtain these skills and lend support to their members, this should be strictly between the union and it's members, the school does not employ the Union, the members do))

10. Schools should be allocated the funds to run their own business according to the performance demonstrated by the individual schools on an annual basis.

11. That school business that is not tangibly deemed to be commercially sensitive to that school should be made transparent for public scrutiny at all times.

12. ERO auditing of schools should be expanded to include school business overall and including as first priority the behaviour of all of the participants in the schools industrial relations performance.

Hopefully then our schools would begin to improve to the point where the education of the pupils can again take presidency over the constantly nagging septic sore of teachers pay and conditions of work!

[SVboy]

All of the above is true and wont change as long as the current situation remains the same!

Lets add on a few more points of pondering that contribute (IMHO) to this on going saga.

5. New Zealand state education is poorly managed.

6. New Zealand teachers are poorly represented.

7. Negotiations on employment remuneration and working conditions is negotiated too far away from the source of the individual working relationship.

I.E. Government negotiates with Union representatives, rather than empowering the people at the work front where the work actually gets done! ( it's akin to riding a motorcycle from the pillion seat and not actually being in control of the bike, then hiring someone to sit on the front seat to control it for you)

8. Empowerment of the work force should be directed to where the work takes place and to where the value of the work is more accurately understood and contracts should be negotiated at that manager/employee level.

9. Training for employment negotiations should be given to help participants to gain the skills and confidence to carry this out successfully and review the situation on an annual basis. (Unions can be used to assist their members to obtain these skills and lend support to their members, this should be strictly between the union and it's members, the school does not employ the Union, the members do))

10. Schools should be allocated the funds to run their own business according to the performance demonstrated by the individual schools on an annual basis.

11. That school business that is not tangibly deemed to be commercially sensitive to that school should be made transparent for public scrutiny at all times.

12. ERO auditing of schools should be expanded to include school business overall and including as first priority the behaviour of all of the participants in the schools industrial relations performance.

Hopefully then our schools would begin to improve to the point where the education of the pupils can again take presidency over the constantly nagging septic sore of teachers pay and conditions of work!

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

[Tink]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

He visited us at school the other week, ... after that I felt ill!

[gijoe1313]

Hmm first day of the school hols, and I am here reading this thread that I started ... I was going to head in today to do some admin work, but seeing as my brother has got back from Mexico and has a day off to recuperate - I'll use the time instead for sibling bonding.

A lot of valid points have been made by both sides - in the end, I can't be faffed with all of this malarkey. I only care about how my students are learning and achieving and how they will be contributing to society as a global citizen.

Morals, principles, ethics and doing the right thing is something I can only hope is transmitted via expectations and pointed guidance in these young things. A lot of what I see in and out of the classroom fills me with hope and joy, mixed with bitter realisations some will never amount to much or destined for a life of hardship and grief for them and others.

I don't have all the answers, I don't support everything the PPTA does. I'm too busy chipping at the coalface at my end and trying to keep myself sane (mmmm oh look, motorbikes - I think I shall go ride them!)

[avgas]

Inflation. The cost of living. GST increase.
Wages are failing to keep up with the cost of living (except for politicians, of course).

Those are environmental effects. This means that everyone in the environment should get the same benefits.
Therefore we all should be paid more for nothing.

So I ask again; What is the specific problem?
Consolidate your arguments.

[Forest]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

Local School Boards were established by the Labour Government under the Tomorrow's Schools reforms.

Bulk funding was introduced by the National Government to give Local School Boards more control over how they spent their budgets.

The Teacher's Union opposed bulk funding because it gave Local School Boards the right to set salaries for the teachers that they employed. In other words - the Union was deathly scared that teachers would be paid according to their job performance. What an outrageous idea!!

[rapid van cleef]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?



its too difficult to get it right i reckon. do we pay doctors based on their success? i dont know. the more people they get better gets them paid more? would they have gotten better all by themselves anyway?..its a huge can of worms

[avgas]

as a teacher i support performance related pay, i work my arse off and i enjoy my job and i know that kids learn stuff in my classes. however, it depends how performance related pay is measured. you can not measure the success of a teacher on ncea results alone. it depends on the starting point for those kids at the start of the year......this often gets forgotten and gets manipulated to proove certain 'facts' for comparison of results and league tables etc etc.

a teacher that gets a top level class has kids come through that would pass the ncea assessments regardless gets a pay rise. However, how much was down to teacher success or student skill that was already there? then the teacher that gets the low ability class doesnt get many kids pass the final assessments but they have all made considerable progress and have many skills they didnt have at the start of the year. which one deserves a pay rise?

its too difficult to get it right i reckon. do we pay doctors based on their success? i dont know. the more people they get better gets them paid more? would they have gotten better all by themselves anyway?..its a huge can of worms

Tis unfortunately the way the world is working at the moment.
However this is why I have asked time and time again what teachers problems are?

I have been fed all types of bullshit - costs of living increasing blah blah blah, we need the money blah blah blah.
Complaining to the government they need more money.

Where what you have said right now clears a lot of this up - Clearly teachers have a problem with how they get evaluated.

Unless teachers started teaching for the money

[Ocean1]

It's true.
And it's a reflection of our education system.
We're getting what we pay for.
And in this case, our best and brightest are not teaching (or at least not in NZ).

I'd contend we're paying for what we haven't done.

The first (effective) lesson any student learns is that the getting of knowledge is not the responsibility of the teacher, it's a prerogative of the student.

Teach that and the student will learn, irrespective of the quality of the teacher.

It's not even a difficult lesson to teach. You can start by refraining from bailing the wee dears out every time they fuck up.

[oldrider]

Thank you Rodney Hide!!!! Bulk funding has been tried-what an abject failure. NZ schools are poorly managed? Says who? Teachers are poorly represented? Says who?. You are welcome to your opinions, but please dont state them as if they are facts.

And now you are trying to convince everyone that what you are doing today "works"...so why are you lot always complaining?

My perception is my reality based mainly on the information teachers provide for us, over and over and over!

[oldrider]

Local School Boards were established by the Labour Government under the Tomorrow's Schools reforms.

Bulk funding was introduced by the National Government to give Local School Boards more control over how they spent their budgets.

The Teacher's Union opposed bulk funding because it gave Local School Boards the right to set salaries for the teachers that they employed. In other words - the Union was deathly scared that teachers would be paid according to their job performance. What an outrageous idea!!

Absolutely, that what gets measured, gets done!

Lets see the good teachers get rewarded for their good work and the rest rewarded accordingly!

[rapid van cleef]

amognst all of that like every trade, there are a few teachers that are a disgrace and should not be in the job. just like i have experienced shit mechanics and shop assistants etc etc. that deosnt mean that i will never go to a shop again or a garage, and it doesnt mean they are all the same.

i love my job

does my wife and kids pay a price for me rarely being there and working with students? ..yes

do i work through weekends and holidays? yes

i work more hours a year than my wife in her full time job with 4 weeks holidays

do teachers get paid more than 'average' already? yes

BUT, we do get paid less here in NZ than a lot of countries......but theres a pay off with the quality of life here in NZ as a teacher

i taught in the uk for 6 years and its soo much harder there. weak teachers get filtered out out in my experience........

and i would go work overseas for more pay if it wasnt for my kids....but i do like it here. many teachers complain about their job when they havent had a 'real job' like in a shop or factory etc etc. ive done allsorts and thats why im still a teacher after 12 years

anyway, its a huge can of worms and like every job, we are not all the same, we are humans, therfore flawed. i have shit lessons too(not often) that doesnt mean im a shit teacher. and i wouldnt want someone assessing my whole years pay based on 1 lesson observation, where it all went wrong, sometimes it does.

imagine teaching a lesson, being observed by 2 or more seniors staff members and 3 kids kick off fighting, all the electricity goes off and then another kid throws up, your office phone rings constantly, 3 different people come into the class to see you about somthing that they should have left until another time, a parent walks into your class to see you, and you have to get on with it....its all quite exciting really. you have another class straight after and you have incident reports to write out and kids to refer to time out room then meetings and phone classs with those kids and parents.....

meetings at breaks, students support/ extra lessons at ,lunchtimes and after school

oh, i forgot, i need to take a crap and drink.......never mind aye.....i havent got time for that......lunch........whats that?

oh, one of the little darlings told me he was gonna burn my house down and told me to fuck off and they know where i live and..........i could go on...

BUT, i love my job!

id still rather not work in a shop!!!!!!!