Pregnant women warned off Te Papa tour

[Banditbandit]

Ata marie āku hoa i tēnei rangi ataahua

Oh dear .. where to start ...

Hey out there....

Just read this article and I'm a bit confused...I do understand the culture signifigance of all of this....where I'm sturuggling is, is this some way of making women second class citizens?

This is an age old way of Maori (correct me if I am wrong), that can be respected....the age old ways of women being second class and subservant to men, whereby men lead the community, have we not moved on from this?

How can the past be relevant in today's society?

This is not making women second-class citizens. You are applying a Pākehā culture-based analysis which is not appropriate. Many of our women do not accept the white middle class versions of feminism and do not apply it to tikanga and kawa.

We have a very different view of the world and how it functions. Would you knowingly expose unborn children to what you thought was a dangerous situation ? Would you knowingly expose women to a dangerous situation which might cause her to become infertile? Would you knowingly expose western art treasures to potential danger ? Would you knowingly expose Christian sacred objects to potential defilement ? I think not. We might see the potential dangers as very different - but to us the dangers exist.

These taonga (treasures) have mauri and mana - they are alive - and need to be trerated with respect or they will become noa and the spiritual forces released for who-knows-what result. We are warning people of dangers we see. If others choose to respect those warnings we thank you. If you do not choose to respect the warnings, we have done our part and our best.

It seems as though age old Maori traditions are not moving with society...can today live with yesterday? Society gives us so many contradictions.

I'd kinda like your interpertation of this.....

It is not up to Pākehā to tell us which parts of our culture we should hold on to and which we should change. Just as it is not up to a Buddhist to tell a Christian which parts of their religion should be changed ..

And we see no contradictions in our worldview. The contradictions are between Pākehā and Māori worldviews ...

I'm not sure they need to explain why...I think they are respecting the significance of Maori hertiage, I struggle with how this can fit 'today'. Have we not evolved? We live today, we do not live in yesterday?

Do we not? A significant group of our society believe that our place in the afterlife has been secured by the violent and painful human sacrifce of a man who was hung on a cross to die in one of the most painful deaths human beings have devised. And they rememebr this by drinking (symbolically) the blood and eating the flesh of that man - every Sunday ... Have we not evolved ?

yes.....is the culture significance releveant today? I dont' get it. This seems to be sexiest and racist all in one! It seems as though Te Papa are saying that the other cultures that are the melting pot of society must adhere to this belief....????


So all Chinese/Jewish/Dutch/American/Russian menstrating woman cannot enter ... why? This is of no significance to her/them - or is it?

They are not saying women can't enter. Te Papa is advising women of our beliefs, ASKING that these be respected and letting them make up their own minds.

Me, I'm a white girl...how Maori feel and believe is not how I feel and believe...yet I must respect their way? Respect their culture...is the respect a two way street.....this just seems wrong. How can they dictate to all women?

As I said, they are not forcing women to follow that belief - they are advising and asking them to respect it - but allowing them to make up their own minds.

And yes, respect is a two-way street. We are forced to function in, and respect, your culture every day. (Yes, we laugh it it - but never where you can see us.)

For instance, when you greet people, do you say Hello and shake their hands ? What if we want to hongi with you - an intimate greeting which breaks down barriers instantly and forms a bond with the person I've just met. How would you feel if I stepped forward to hongi ? Probably, like most Pākehā, you would feel uncomfortable, step back, avoid it. Pākehā are reluctant to hongi except on a marae and then feel uncomfortable about it ... So we are forced to follow your culture in such a simple thing. When we meet in your environment, do you offer us a cup of tea and food? We always would - not matter whether you were Māori or Pākehā. My experience is that Pākehā only do so for important ocassions.

When we are at your house, do you start to clean up a meal and do the dishes while we are still there? I have seen many Pākehā do this - but to us it is a sign that we are to leave. This makes us uncomfortable as many Pākehā make it clear that is not the intention.

When a child is disciplined at school, they are told to stand up straight and look the principal in the eye. To us this is a sign of disrespect as the person standing is in the dominant position and the inferior should never look them straight in the eye as it is a direct challenge.

Such simple things which we see and you do not. Follow through your day and see, in your interactions with others, how much of what you do is based in New ZEaland's western-derived culture and how much you exopect those around you to interact accordiong to those norms. Then you might appreciate respect for another culure.

We respect and function in your culture. We do not see the same in return ... You can say "We did not know" and you did not - but Pākehā have been in this country for 200 years and they have not learnt how to live in this land. On the other hand, every day we are forced to follow your cultural norms.

And some people believe the Earth is flat. Doesn't mean they are right, and certainly doesn't mean that we can't laugh and point...and go on in our own belief that the world is a disc, carried on the backs of 4 elephants, who stand on the shell of a giant space turtle.

FFS. This belief that pregnant or menstruating women are 'tapu' is based on primitive superstition, reasonably common in stone-age peoples, generally for health purposes. How backward does anyone have to be to still give any credence to it's relevance in this day and age?

How backwards is it to give credence to an afterlife secured by painful human sacrifice ?

Hey, that I get...but Te Papa is open to all paying customers. Te Papa is a public museum, yet they are saying not all public can enter! They are saying if you are pregnant and or menstrating you cannot come in. This is 2010 not 1710, or even 1310!

Te Papa is not saying that at all .. the journalist who wrote the piece aimed for an interpretation as you suggest. A skillful piece of sensationalism .. but that is not wehat they are saying at all. A small tour for regional museum staff is not a public event or a ban on the museum as such ...

OH I dont' find it offensive...I'm confused how this can fit with today's society.....

We have no problem seeing it fitting into today's world. This is still Te Ao Mārama ... nothing has changed for us in that respect, except the Pākehā arrived with different ways of doing things and expected us to accept those ways. Some of us do not accept that.

What is going to happen????

Infertility ... still births .. miscarriage .. the defilement of a tapu object.

Te Papa is on shaky grounds. This is discrimination. Human Rights Commission anyone?

Is it ? Have they forbidden it? No. Is it agaist Human Rights to make women sit up stairs in a Synogogue? Is it against Human RIghts for the Catholic Church to forbid women to become priests? I think not - and the same applies ..

how much of the tour is around these sacred maori objects?

Why put shit into a museum then proceed to restrict who can see it? They should put the sacred objects in a marae and then they've got their own club rules they can apply.

There are many objects in museum collections which are not always on public view. Many museums rotate objects between storage areas and viewing areas.

The difference here is that in vieweing areas trhe objects and public are separated by the glass cases the objects are stored in. On this tour people will be in areas where these objects are not protected in such a way.

How do they tell whether a woman is menstruating or pregnant? (Ignore the obvously pregnant answer). Is this an honesty system?

Yes - if you read the article, yes.

Imagine if the role was reversed... Me as a white man put my triumph in Te Papa and said culturally I couldn't let anyone with a maori tattoo in to see it. Would that go down well? I bet I would be had up nationally or internationally on discrimination grounds.

What part of your culture could you point to to say that was the justification for not allowing anyone with a Māori tattoo to see it? If you can (which I doubt) theen of course that would be respected (and laughed at) ...

Generally I am heartened by some of the responses in this forum, and I thank you for those. But I am equally saddened by the tenor of the article adn by the response of some here. We clearly have a long way to go yet.

I mutu ahau ēnei kōrero. Tāku mihi ki a nga tangata ka panui koutou ki kōnei.

Tōku aroha, tōku mihi nui ki a koutou, those you are supportive and those who are trying to learn and understand.

[duckonin]

Doesn't mean you cant respect that they believe it

Should we also respect the fact that 'Whats mine is yours, but what's yours is all mine' Maori believe that to be true..

[marie_speeds]

Should we also respect the fact that 'Whats mine is yours, but what's yours is all mine' Maori believe that to be true..

So do wives getting divorced and your point is what exactly?

[rachprice]

Eh...? That's not what she said.

Ah true true...I read it wrong

[duckonin]

Paul Henry would know what to say about this!


Personally I see it as advising people of the cultural believes and protocol, maybe some respect is needed.

Outside the square...

It would be a bit sad if a number of pregnant women miscarried after a visit to this exhibit...

Maybe a new way forward for a cheap abortion..

[duckonin]

So do wives getting divorced and your point is what exactly?

You figure it out ! so then u can come up with your own answer to suit your brain.

[marie_speeds]

You figure it out ! so then u can come up with your own answer to suit your brain.

What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine

[buffstar]

PC vs PC

gotta respect the whole Maori thing - & yet cant discriminate against women

too funny

[duckonin]

What's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine

Ha ha yep ok,all sounds good..

[Mudfart]

go check out the unusually high number of male genitalia on the carvings at waikato museum, there for all to see, especially the children, who have to pass them to go to the hands on science display room. i can understand fertility worship, blah blah, but these were done for the purpose of shock im sure.
like a certain maori mural that shows a male part entering a female part painted by female crims, in a family meeting room.

[popelli]

Oh dear. How can this possibly be racist? It is aimed at all women, no race is favoured or disadvantaged by the suggestion. You could argue that it's sexist, but claims of racism are yet another over-reaction.

any statement made by a ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome can be viewed as racist

As maori women already know about this it must be inferred that the statement is deliberately aimed at non maori women therefore it should be viewed as being racially motivated with a view to making these people feel unwelcome

[popelli]

Ata marie āku hoa i tēnei rangi ataahua

Oh dear .. where to start ...



This is not making women second-class citizens. You are applying a P***** culture-based analysis which is not appropriate.

well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

[Nasty]

any statement made by a ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome can be viewed as racist

As maori women already know about this it must be inferred that the statement is deliberately aimed at non maori women therefore it should be viewed as being racially motivated with a view to making these people feel unwelcome

Your understanding is limited by what? This is not a statement by an "ethnic group delioberately aimed at making members of another ethnic group feel uncomfortable or unwelcome" this is an advisory to woman of the beliefs behind exposure to some items. NOT ALL maori women know EVERYTHING - so inasmuch this is an advisory to them as well.

Personally - don't see it as racist - but it seems that woman are being told of the beliefs around these items - and are able to make their own choices - wow that hurts!

[Nasty]

well you could start by not insulting non maori by the repetitive use of the word p****a

the literal translation of this is less than polite and many people find your use of it insulting

You need to check out your translations better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakeha or even this essay http://www.maorinews.com/writings/pa...her/pakeha.htm.

a little more investigation rather than going only by your knowledge of what others tell you might help. Misinterpretations are easy to understand - but gaining understanding is a little harder.

[Nasty]

just had a interesting discussion here at work - on this topic (believe it or not).

we have agreed that this advisory is similar to "informed consent" - utilised around medical procedures. Once you are informed you can choose to consent or choose to not consent and therefore limit what is being done. In this case - you can choose to go or choose not to go - but at least you are being informed about the choices - and if you feel you are not informed enough - you can ask more questions to gain the information to make a choice.