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Thread: Old aircraft keep going… and going…

  1. #1
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    Old aircraft keep going… and going…

    Hog – 2028! BUFF – 2040!!

    That is a serious lifespan for technology, upgrades and good, basic engineering to begin with.


    In Afghanistan, the most requested ground support aircraft is the U.S. A-10. It's been that way since 2002, and there was similar A-10 affection in Iraq. Troops from all nations quickly come to appreciate the unique abilities of this 1970s era aircraft, that the U.S. Air Force has several times tried to retire. Now, over 300 remaining A-10s are being upgraded, so that they can fly until 2028. This includes new electronics as well as structural and engine refurbishment.
    A-10s are worked hard. An A-10 squadron has a dozen aircraft and 18 pilots. Pilots often average about a hundred hours a month in the air. That's about twenty sorties, as each sortie averages about five hours. The aircraft range all over southern Afghanistan, waiting for troops below to call for some air support. The A-10, nicknamed "Warthog", or just "hog", could always fly low and slow, and was designed, and armoured, to survive lots of ground fire. The troops trust the A-10 more than the F-16, or any other aircraft used for ground support.
    For the last three years, pilots have been flying a new version of the A-10, the A-10C. The air force has been upgrading A-10s to the "C" model for most of the past decade. The new goodies for the A-10C equip the pilot with the same targeting and fire control gadgets the latest fighters have. The new A-10C cockpit has all the spiffy colour displays and easy to use controls. Because it is a single-seat aircraft, that flies close to the ground (something that requires a lot more concentration), all the automation in the cockpit allows the pilot to do a lot more, with less stress, exertion and danger.
    The basic A-10 is a three decade old design, so the new additions are quite spectacular in comparison. New commo gear is installed as well, allowing A-10 pilots to share pix and vids with troops on the ground. The A-10 pilot also has access to the Blue Force Tracker system, so that the nearest friendly ground forces show up on the HUD (Head Up Display) when coming in low to use the 30mm cannon. The A-10 can now use smart bombs, making it a do-it-all aircraft for troops support. The air force is also upgrading the engine and structural components on the A-10s, which may cost another $10 million per aircraft. But this extends the service life of each aircraft to 16,000 hours.
    The newly equipped A-10s are so abundant enough now, that only A-10Cs are flying in combat zones. But it will take several more years to upgrade all 350 A-10s in service. Beyond that, the air force will continue to upgrade the engines and structures of the 1970s era aircraft. All the upgrades will cost about $13 million per aircraft.
    The A-10 is a 23 ton, twin engine, single seat aircraft whose primary weapon is a multi-barrel 30mm cannon originally designed to fire armoured piercing shells at Russian tanks. These days, the 1,174 30mm rounds are mostly high explosive. The 30mm cannon fires 363 gram (12.7 ounce) rounds at the rate of about 65 a second. The cannon is usually fired in one or two second bursts. In addition, the A-10 can carry seven tons of bombs and missiles. These days, the A-10 goes out with smart bombs (GPS and laser guided) and Maverick missiles. It can also carry a targeting pod, enabling the pilot to use high magnification day/night cameras to scour the area for enemy activity. Cruising speed is 560 kilometres an hour and the A-10 can slow down to about 230 kilometres an hour. In Afghanistan, two drop tanks are usually carried, to give the aircraft maximum time over the battlefield.


    Then... Mr BUFF.
    Without any fanfare, the U.S. Air Force recently announced that it would spend $11.9 billion to keep its remaining B-52 bombers in service until they are all retired by 2040. At that point, the last ones will have served over 70 years. The new "sustainment program" will cost over $150 million per aircraft, which is about twice what they cost to build (accounting for inflation).
    The reason for this investment in half century old aircraft has a lot to do with the fact that the B-52 is very capable, reliable, and cheap to operate. This is especially true compared to the aircraft built to replace it (the B-1B). The U.S. Air Force has been having a hard time keeping its 67 B-1B bombers ready for action. Two years ago, the availability rate (aircraft you can send into action) was about 51 percent. Seven years ago it was 56 percent. Progress is being made, but the B-52 is still more reliable. The B-1Bs are used to drop smart bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are particularly popular in Afghanistan, because you can put one in the air, and it can cover the entire country. While the B-1B is twice as expensive to operate (per hour in the air) than the B-52, the B-1B can more quickly move to a new target over Afghanistan.
    B-52s are not only cheaper to maintain, they have a higher availability rate (65 percent.) As a result, the air force wants to keep 76 B-52s in service (despite a Congressional mandate to reduce that number to 56.) With the development of GPS guided bombs (JDAM), heavy bombers have become the most cost-effective way to deliver support to ground forces. The B-52 is the cheapest American heavy bomber to operate, and the oldest.
    The new sustainment program includes continuing upgrades that are already in progress. This includes replacing the 30 year old APQ-166 strategic radar. The B-52 users would prefer to have a modern AESA (phased array) type radar, but the air force is reluctant to spend that much. That's because the radar upgrade will accompany the addition of new communications gear, to allow the B-52s to participate in the Internet like network the air force is creating for its aircraft. This also allows the warplanes to communicate with similar networks being built by the army and navy. The new sustainment program may give the B-52s even more advanced equipment after all.
    The B-52 has had a lot of competition. In the last sixty years, the air force has developed six heavy bombers (the 240 ton B-52 in 1955, the 74 ton B-58 in 1960, the 47 ton FB-111 in 1969, the 260 ton B-70 in the 1960s, the 236 ton B-1 in 1985, and the 181 ton B-2 in 1992.) All of these were developed primarily to deliver nuclear weapons (bombs or missiles), but have proved more useful dropping non-nuclear bombs. Only the B-70 was cancelled before being deployed. The successors to the B-52 were more complex and expensive since they were designed to penetrate ever more formidable air defences. The B-52 needs none of these improvements for the bombing missions against foes with no air defences against high flying aircraft. Moreover, defence is now more a matter of electronics than higher speed or stealth. So the B-52 is still competitive, even against defended targets.
    The well maintained and sustained B-52s are quite sturdy and have, on average, only 16,000 flying hours on them. The air force estimates that the B-52s won't become un-maintainable until they reach 28,000 flight hours. The B-1 and B-2 were meant to provide a high tech replacement for the B-52, but the end of the Cold War made that impractical. The kinds of anti-aircraft threats the B-1 and B-2 were designed to deal with never materialized. This left the B-52 as the most cost effective way to deliver bombs. The B-1s and B-2s are getting some of the same weapons carrying and communications upgrades as the B-52, if only because these more modern aircraft provide an expensive backup for the B-52.
    The B-1B and B-2 are more expensive to operate because they haul around a lot of gear that is not needed for the current counter-terror operations. The B-1B can travel at high speed and very low altitude, to evade enemy air defences. The B-2 is very difficult to detect on radar, but this ability is achieved with some expensive to maintain design features. Back in the 1950s, when the B-52 was designed, air warfare was a lot simpler and so was the BUFF (Big, Ugly, Fat Fucker, as the B-52 has long been known.) There are still potential enemies out there with Cold War grade air defences, and the B-1s and B-2s are maintained to deal with that eventuality in mind.



    I must go and check up on the DC-3...


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  2. #2
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    I don't understand the people who think the A-10 is "ugly".

    Awesome craft.

    All my books on the topic say "soon to be retired".

    Ha!
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    Ok, so there's BILLIONS of $$$ for war upgrades and BILLIONS of $$$ to bail banks out, but f'all for every day normal folk... what a HUGE feckin waste

    Sorry

    Cool planes though
    I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!

  4. #4
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    General Horner thought the A-10 was seriously ugly. His son decided to fly them and he was regularly quoted as saying "oh, I don't think I have a son anymore".

    When the Hogs were saving everyones arse in the 2nd gulf war, he stated that "I take back every bad word I've said about the A-10, they are saving our arses!"
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    I don't understand the people who think the A-10 is "ugly".

    Awesome craft.

    All my books on the topic say "soon to be retired".

    Ha!
    A-10 can be called whatever people want, but it's one of those designs that screams "DONT FUCK WITH ME PUNK!" when ya look at it sideways
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  6. #6
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    Same goes with Apachi (on helicopter side). What will replace Apachis?


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  7. #7
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    And the Americans think they are better than the Russians....
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    In saying that I do have a soft spot for the A10
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    Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.

  8. #8
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    I love the BUFF

    Especially when they say "X was replaced, then they were reskinned, then Y was replaced"

    It's a bit like grandad's axe......
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  9. #9
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    The B-52's have been in active service since 1955 and by the time they get retired in 2040, that will be 85 years !!!!


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  10. #10
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    I saw a thing on youtube that the pilots could actually feel the plane slov down when they fired the minigun, and the pilots wife knew when the pilot had fired it 'cos she could smell it on him.

    Fucking insane planes those A10s, and I can see why they are called Warthogs.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazman727 View Post
    Fucking insane planes those A10s, and I can see why they are called Warthogs.
    I just love the way the front wheel's off-centre - a constant reminder that the whole thing is built entirely around that gun
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  12. #12
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    Managed to find the Gooney Bird article.


    2009. Colombia lost one of its AC-47 gunships, apparently to mechanical malfunction. The aircraft carried a five man crew to handle the sensors and weapons. Over the last five years, Colombia paid about $20 million to convert five World War II era C-47 (DC-3) transports to gunships (armed with night vision sensors and a three barrel .50 caliber machine-gun, and some bombs). Such gunships first appeared, using World War II era C-47 transports, in the 1960s over Vietnam. The troops called the gunships, which liked to operate at night, "Spooky."
    The DC 3 (or C-47 or "Dakota" in military usage) continues to fly in commercial service into the 21st century. Several hundred DC 3s are still flying worldwide, mostly owned by small domestic carriers in the U.S. and by some Third World air transport companies. A state of the art aircraft in the mid-1930s (during which only 500 were built), over 35,000 DC 3's were produced for use during World War II. The DC-3 was, in fact, the most widely manufactured aircraft of the war.

    When allied paratroopers jumped, it was usually from a DC 3 (which could carry 28 troops, but over sixty people were squeezed in during emergencies). With a maximum range of 3,400 kilometers and a top speed of 296 kilometers per hour, the DC 3 was the common cargo carrier (up to 3.5 tons) and general purpose "flying truck." It still is.
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  13. #13
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    The Warthog was designed for a purpose and to a spec. It was to operate at low level and low speed to give plenty of time to aquire and stay on target, while being fast enough to get to and from the battle ground quickly. It was to protect the pilot from ground fire, and have the engines positioned to make it difficult for shoulder fired IR SAMs to get a lock. And if a missile should hit an engine it would be far enough away from the fuselage to minimise any collateral damage while still being able to fly and fight on a single engine.

    Its a pity modern designers don't follow the same principles.
    Time to ride

  14. #14
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    $150 million to keep a B52 flying for another 30 years? Damn!

    Probably still cheaper than servicing a Ducati for that long.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopperus View Post
    Probably still cheaper than servicing a Ducati for that long.
    The electronics will still be more reliable than those of a Ducati.
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

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