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Thread: First official photo of Triumph Tiger 800 XC

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Want to be able to have it repaired easily? Gotta be steel framed rather than alloy, up goes the weight again.
    I've held the steel frame from my EXC in one hand and the alloy frame from a CR125 in the other. No contest, the alloy frame is much heavier. Alloy is used for motorcycle frames not because it's light but because it's manufacture doesn't require human labour. Can't catagorically say for sure which is more rigid but I bet the chromoly is.

    Weight is not a strong factor for most buyers when choosing a bike, so it's not a serious design consideration. It should be.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by cold comfort View Post
    Wet weights. Super Ten 261 kg, BMW 1200 gsa 256 , KTM 990 229, Triumph XC 214. Looks like a lightweight in comparison.
    Agree with this, XC is still lighter than the big boys making it more user friendly all round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Crap
    Under
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    Hint: Read down
    done and he has been

    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman1 View Post
    How could could Triumph get it so close to looking like a BMW 800GS without putting a BMW badge on. Imitation is the best form of flattery I suppose
    ... and reading the ADV Parallel Universe section they may have built it better forgiving it is a series 1

    BMtroubleU are still having some of the same problems that they had back in 08, same gripes from the owners thus nothing is perfect eh, lets just hope it is not wired by Luigi .

    I think for the weight difference it is a serious contender straight off the shelf, all the usual farkles will still be need to make it how YOU want it.
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  3. #123
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    15th August 2004 - 17:52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    I've held the steel frame from my EXC in one hand and the alloy frame from a CR125 in the other. No contest, the alloy frame is much heavier. Alloy is used for motorcycle frames not because it's light but because it's manufacture doesn't require human labour. Can't catagorically say for sure which is more rigid but I bet the chromoly is.
    Dunno that human labour comes in to it, everything is welded by robots these days, izit? IIRC alloy can distort when welded, unlike or much more so than steel, so is baked to relax it afterwards. Seem to remember Hinckley Triumph did something clever with their welding process on the alloy swingarms to avoid that distortion.

    Possibly the alloy is stiffer. Ally alloys are bulkier than steel for the same strength even though they may be lighter, which means they can triangulate for better stiffness. In the Doohan era, 500GP bikes started to get frames too stiff to feedback to the riders, so Honda selectively polished parts of the alloy frames to create appropriate flex. Absolute rigidity is not necessarily the ultimate goal when you want some shock absorption.

    KTM steel frames are also CrMo steel, which are significantly lighter & stronger than standard steel. Dunno what everybody else uses, could be CrMo, too.

    Gack! It's been too long since I was doing materials physics at uni, drawing crystalline structures, phase diagrams, physical testing etc of alloys.
    Cheers,
    Colin

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McQueen
    All racers I know aren't in it for the money. They race because it's something inside of them... They're not courting death. They're courting being alive.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by warewolf View Post
    Dunno that human labour comes in to it, everything is welded by robots these days, izit? IIRC alloy can distort when welded, unlike or much more so than steel, so is baked to relax it afterwards. Seem to remember Hinckley Triumph did something clever with their welding process on the alloy swingarms to avoid that distortion.
    Distortion during welding is more of a problem with steels than Aluminium. Particularly with medium carbon or high tensile steels. Welding alloy does fuck the temper, though, so you have to post-weld heat treat the frame. That may be what Triumph were doing with their swingarms. Side note: BSA once constructed an argon atmosphere welding room so they could make Ti MX frames, (Pre-TIG technology). The frames failed, it cost them the championship. Ti is an utter bitch to weld to this day.


    Quote Originally Posted by warewolf View Post
    Possibly the alloy is stiffer. Ally alloys are bulkier than steel for the same strength even though they may be lighter, which means they can triangulate for better stiffness. In the Doohan era, 500GP bikes started to get frames too stiff to feedback to the riders, so Honda selectively polished parts of the alloy frames to create appropriate flex. Absolute rigidity is not necessarily the ultimate goal when you want some shock absorption.
    Designers might well triangulate frame assemblies, but they don’t tend to, the marketing accountants tend to win that particular battle. Most alloy frames are made up of cast or forged parts and extrusions. The extrusions are tubular, same as a steel frame. The cast or forged parts are invariably single sided shells, not very ridged. Be nice if they were closed shells but that’d be very expensive to make. Also, the welding automation would then need to be as sophisticated as that for a full tube frame, possible but difficult.

    I don’t subscribe to the theory that frames should flex. I think they should be as ridged as possible within a reasonable mass budget. Suspension elements are there to deal with and effectively control wheel movement, if designed-in chassis flex produces better results it’s because the suspension isn’t doing it’s job properly.

    Tubular space frames are expensive to make, but in my experience they’re more ridged and a lot lighter than a modern alloy bike frame.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    I don’t subscribe to the theory that frames should flex. I think they should be as ridged as possible within a reasonable mass budget. Suspension elements are there to deal with and effectively control wheel movement, if designed-in chassis flex produces better results it’s because the suspension isn’t doing it’s job properly.
    How much does your "effective" suspension flex left-right? A bike on its side in a corner tends to negate much of the suspension's action since the forces are no longer operating in the same plane.

    I would have thought the top 500GP teams would have pretty effective suspension.

    btw I think you mean "rigid" not "ridged". Ridges are another design element to add rigidity.
    Cheers,
    Colin

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McQueen
    All racers I know aren't in it for the money. They race because it's something inside of them... They're not courting death. They're courting being alive.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by warewolf View Post
    How much does your "effective" suspension flex left-right? A bike on its side in a corner tends to negate much of the suspension's action since the forces are no longer operating in the same plane.

    I would have thought the top 500GP teams would have pretty effective suspension.
    Yes, a bike on it's side or a rider hanging off the inside does apply lateral force to the wheels but I don't see why they need to deflect sideways. I'd say "effective" suspension is that which has minimal friction in spite of that lateral loading, and which will nonetheless control the wheel movement to best effect. Don't see how allowing the frame to do lateral suspension duty is going to contribute to best control practice.

    As far as the GP dudes go I'd be dissapointed if they didn't try pretty much everything that occurs to them. I'd be interested to know if anyone's deliberately compromised their frames since the advent of sophistocated on board telemetry.

    Quote Originally Posted by warewolf View Post
    btw I think you mean "rigid" not "ridged". Ridges are another design element to add rigidity.
    Correct.

    And correct.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    As far as the GP dudes go I'd be dissapointed if they didn't try pretty much everything that occurs to them. I'd be interested to know if anyone's deliberately compromised their frames since the advent of sophistocated on board telemetry.
    I don't know if i would use the word "compromised" but they have engineered in frame flex in different areas as a result of testing or rider feedback
    "If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough power."


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  8. #128
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    Tiger 800 xc review

    Tried out the shiny orange demo kindly loaned from McIvor and Veitch. Picked it up after work on Sat and had it all day today. Couldn't have been a better day as well.
    The mission was to ascertain its suitability for carrying me and the missus over a days riding on various road surfaces and inevitable comparison with my now sold Multistrada.(some would say all NZ's sealed roads are various, but I digress).
    Took in a loop from Dunners via Middlemarch, Danseys Pass Moeraki return.
    Engine- very SMOOTH. They have the mapping right and throttle response is crisp though not aggressive. Great to say goodbye to the snatchy Ducati version.Nice linear power. 6th gear definitely overdrive, not for passing.
    The sticky on the tank advised keeping the revs below 5000 rpm so not a true test of acceleration. Having said that it pulled strongly with 2 up and did not disappoint. Nice growly engine note too.
    Comfort- again blew away the Mouldystrudel. Wife very comfy for 4 of the 5 hrs when knees starting to feel stiff and my bum requiring a little lateral movement. She rated it as good if not better than the Bandit.
    Wind protection quite adequate. My first impression was of buffeting over 70 km/hr but strangely 2 up it was fine (?change in angle of attack) On reflection having the seat on the lowest setting may have had something to do with it (it may have been higher when i first took it for a quick run solo)
    Handling- bloody brilliant. For a 21in front handled twisty asphalt with ease. Boot contact in a few exuberant corners but NO peg contact (unlike the Ducati "sports bike").
    The "dreaded" Battlewings, while not as confidence inspiring as a more aggressive pattern,handled the loose stuff with no tendency to front end wash and never gave me a moments concern cornering under power. Again allowing for my pedestrian skills,concern for (a) my wife (b) the loan bike i was not riding with the enthusiasm reserved for my DR!
    Brakes- some criticism elsewhere of front being inadequate but i found them fine particularly as i was having to brake more to avoid over revving with engine braking.(the 5000 limit again).
    Instrument layout is good. Easy to see for those older gentlemen like myself who prefer to read things at arms reach!

    Downside- getting nabbed on the coast by the revenue collector for $120 plus 20 demerits for watching the road/ traffic instead of compulsively staring at the speedo whilst overtaking..
    Oh well, C'est la vie. Still cheap bike hire for a day.
    "Age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill"

  9. #129
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