MP travel perks: What do you think?

[mashman]

Do you vote?

I NEVER have! There's noone worth voting for in that 2 horse race...

[Mully]

Yeah - petitions are good stuff.

Remember that referendum we had a few years back to reduce the number of MPs from 120 to 99? I can't remember how that turned out, but I'm sure it was a roaring success for democracy.

[Oscar]

I NEVER have! There's noone worth voting for in that 2 horse race...

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

[Usarka]

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

+10000000000

[rustyrobot]

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

I always thought of it more like - if you DO vote, don't whinge about the result. You participated, you thought that ticking a box once every three years could really represent your wants/needs. Don't complain if the box you tick didn't end up being the winning one, because you obviously thought the system was fair. And don't complain if the box you ticked ends up biting you in the arse because you obviously were naive enough to believe what they said at election time.

[Urano]

oh... politics and elections...


i give you only two names: Arrow and Condorcet.
good read...

[Oscar]

I always thought of it more like - if you DO vote, don't whinge about the result. You participated, you thought that ticking a box once every three years could really represent your wants/needs. Don't complain if the box you tick didn't end up being the winning one, because you obviously thought the system was fair. And don't complain if the box you ticked ends up biting you in the arse because you obviously were naive enough to believe what they said at election time.

If he can't be arsed making the minimum effort to be involved in a democracy, he can STFU.

The system is not fair (because sometimes there are legitimate concerns of minority groups that don't get addressed) but is the best one I can see and waaay better than the alternatives.

[ducatilover]

Voted. Good luck with the petition.

[mashman]

You can't be arsed voting, but you run a petition about elected representatives?

As far as I'm concerned, if you don't vote, don't whinge about the result.

No, I can be arsed, I CHOOSE not to and highlighted my reasons in the previous post that answered your question...

I put up a petition about the waste of the tax dollar THAT I PAY (didn't you read it?, as shit as it is ). So i have every right to "complain" about someone spending MY MONEY in a manner that displeases me. I also offered, what i would consider to be, a reasonable solution. It is entirely up to you wether you agree or not. Essentially it has nothing to do with politics, other than it's the politicians that are spending the money .

I wasn't wingeing about the result. Hence the reason i don't vote. It makes no difference who's in power, they will rort and abuse where it's available.

Funny thing is, the petition isn't for or about me, is it? Or are your comprehension skills going to miss that too.

If he can't be arsed making the minimum effort to be involved in a democracy, he can STFU.

The system is not fair (because sometimes there are legitimate concerns of minority groups that don't get addressed) but is the best one I can see and waaay better than the alternatives.

Awefully undemocratic of you given the freedom of speech thingymajig. I can be arsed, I choose not to waste the 3 seconds ticking the box... else i'd be on the dole and living it up at your expense . I work, I pay my taxes, i even pay for my prescription drugs so that it doesn't come out of ACC's budget . I live as much of an honest life as I can. I don't structure my tax affairs in a way that would bring me into the category of being able to claim child tax credits, even though that option is available to me. I have a social conscience, most of the time, and try to do the best by my fellow man as I can. I've recently been in a position where I could have sent a company to the wall (because of their lack of ethics, amongst other things), but chose not to because they have families to feed too (they went under all by themselves and ripped each other off, before trying to flee the country (rumour has it) ). I'm a Libran, my family motto is VERITAS VINCIT (funnily enough)... Anything else you'd like to know? I have my reasons for my actions, same as you do...

The system is FUBAR. To the point where i'd say there is no system anymore, just a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period. If you can't offer an alternative, I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough and that indeed you should, with respect, STFU .

[Oscar]

No, I can be arsed, I CHOOSE not to and highlighted my reasons in the previous post that answered your question...

I put up a petition about the waste of the tax dollar THAT I PAY (didn't you read it?, as shit as it is ). So i have every right to "complain" about someone spending MY MONEY in a manner that displeases me. I also offered, what i would consider to be, a reasonable solution. It is entirely up to you wether you agree or not. Essentially it has nothing to do with politics, other than it's the politicians that are spending the money .

I wasn't wingeing about the result. Hence the reason i don't vote. It makes no difference who's in power, they will rort and abuse where it's available.

Funny thing is, the petition isn't for or about me, is it? Or are your comprehension skills going to miss that too.



Awefully undemocratic of you given the freedom of speech thingymajig. I can be arsed, I choose not to waste the 3 seconds ticking the box... else i'd be on the dole and living it up at your expense . I work, I pay my taxes, i even pay for my prescription drugs so that it doesn't come out of ACC's budget . I live as much of an honest life as I can. I don't structure my tax affairs in a way that would bring me into the category of being able to claim child tax credits, even though that option is available to me. I have a social conscience, most of the time, and try to do the best by my fellow man as I can. I've recently been in a position where I could have sent a company to the wall (because of their lack of ethics, amongst other things), but chose not to because they have families to feed too (they went under all by themselves and ripped each other off, before trying to flee the country (rumour has it) ). I'm a Libran, my family motto is VERITAS VINCIT (funnily enough)... Anything else you'd like to know? I have my reasons for my actions, same as you do...

The system is FUBAR. To the point where i'd say there is no system anymore, just a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period. If you can't offer an alternative, I would suggest that you're not thinking hard enough and that indeed you should, with respect, STFU .

Why should I offer an alternative?
I'm not the one criticizing the system.

You seem very confused.
You say the system is fucked, without suggesting an alternative.
Not only that, but you are suggesting that you can work within that system (a parliamentary petition) to change that system.
I also don't see what your comments about tax credits and people going broke have to do with the subject at hand.

As for "a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period" - how elitist and arrogant is that comment?
Are you seriously suggesting that you know better than the entire NZ electorate?
You're special.

As far as being undemocratic is concerned, on the contrary, I am exercising my right of free speech (as you are).

[mashman]

Why should I offer an alternative?
I'm not the one criticizing the system.

You seem very confused.
You say the system is fucked, without suggesting an alternative.
Not only that, but you are suggesting that you can work within that system (a parliamentary petition) to change that system.
I also don't see what your comments about tax credits and people going broke have to do with the subject at hand.

As for "a random selection of useless policy changes over a 3 year period" - how elitist and arrogant is that comment?
Are you seriously suggesting that you know better than the entire NZ electorate?
You're special.

As far as being undemocratic is concerned, on the contrary, I am exercising my right of free speech (as you are).

Yet you will critisize those who do offer alternatives?
I thought you said "The system is not fair"... must be my comprehension failure.

I am confused, but the reasons behind my confusion are not the ones you're thinking of.
In the context of the thread, I did indeed suggest an alternative in the petition. Ya know, the no perks for cash thing, just strip the perks away and change nothing else. That's an alternative.
As you have pointed out yourself, we have no choice but to work within that system. The alternative is, well, probably not very legal.
I slid into the world of sarcasm , I must stop it, you keep asking questions and making assumptions, I thought i'd give you a little background, have a chortle to myself, as well as highlight some of the reasons behind my motives. Your choice to read into it what you will.

That's the way I see it. Nothing of any note really changes, social funding gets cut, the rich get richer, $2 billion of exports to China, $4 billion imports from China, what could this country do with $2 billion... They even ignored the people when they resoundingly said fuck off to that smacking bill... You think TPTB know better than the rest of the country?
I've never been called elitist before. Thanks . I've been called arrogant before and i'm sure I will again. I'd argue the toss but it'd just slide into sarcasm again.
I never said that I knew better, I just expressed a sentiment and asked if anyone shared it...
I know I am and I have the dribble and lunch on my shirt to prove it... damn...

yet I should STFU because i don't vote

[Oscar]

Yet you will critisize those who do offer alternatives?
I thought you said "The system is not fair"... must be my comprehension failure.

I am confused, but the reasons behind my confusion are not the ones you're thinking of.
In the context of the thread, I did indeed suggest an alternative in the petition. Ya know, the no perks for cash thing, just strip the perks away and change nothing else. That's an alternative.
As you have pointed out yourself, we have no choice but to work within that system. The alternative is, well, probably not very legal.
I slid into the world of sarcasm , I must stop it, you keep asking questions and making assumptions, I thought i'd give you a little background, have a chortle to myself, as well as highlight some of the reasons behind my motives. Your choice to read into it what you will.

That's the way I see it. Nothing of any note really changes, social funding gets cut, the rich get richer, $2 billion of exports to China, $4 billion imports from China, what could this country do with $2 billion... They even ignored the people when they resoundingly said fuck off to that smacking bill... You think TPTB know better than the rest of the country?
I've never been called elitist before. Thanks . I've been called arrogant before and i'm sure I will again. I'd argue the toss but it'd just slide into sarcasm again.
I never said that I knew better, I just expressed a sentiment and asked if anyone shared it...
I know I am and I have the dribble and lunch on my shirt to prove it... damn...

yet I should STFU because i don't vote

I said the system is not perfect and inherently unfair to minority groups, but is the best of any options presented so far.

You seem to be struggling to keep one train of thought - you oscillate between Chinese debt and the stain on your shirt - perhaps you should limit yourself to one concept per thread (or one bong a day).

[mashman]

I said the system is not perfect and inherently unfair to minority groups, but is the best of any options presented so far.

You seem to be struggling to keep one train of thought - you oscillate between Chinese debt and the stain on your shirt - perhaps you should limit yourself to one concept per thread (or one bong a day).

And that's not a criticism? I must read a dictionary some day. You're right though and I blame the politicians for it being that way. Hence the $2 billion deficit, another motive and money that could be spent on the minority groups in THIS country.

It's the same train of thought to me, the motives behind me not agreeing with MP perks, they get travel subsidies, cut services, increase taxation (via GST), increase healthcare levies, increase fuel tax, cut social programmes and yet they happily lose $2 billion for the country in 1 deal... that does not sound like a bunch of people who deserve travel perks to me, let alone a cash substitute.

[Oscar]

And that's not a criticism? I must read a dictionary some day. You're right though and I blame the politicians for it being that way. Hence the $2 billion deficit, another motive and money that could be spent on the minority groups in THIS country.

It's the same train of thought to me, the motives behind me not agreeing with MP perks, they get travel subsidies, cut services, increase taxation (via GST), increase healthcare levies, increase fuel tax, cut social programmes and yet they happily lose $2 billion for the country in 1 deal... that does not sound like a bunch of people who deserve travel perks to me, let alone a cash substitute.

It seems to me that simply saying MP's get travel perks and you think they should not is a bit nebulous. If you want to do something about it - give us some facts:

1. How much is an MP is paid (including perks)?
2. How much do you think they should be paid and why?
3. How much do we spend on (non work related) travel for these guys?
4. Hasn't there already been some work vis-a-vis trading salary for perks? How much?
5. When was a teachers salary ever comparable with an MPs?

Perhaps if you'd shed the hyperbole (BTW: what did they lose $2b on, and how do you know they were happy about it?) and skin up some facts you might get somewhere.

[mashman]

It seems to me that simply saying MP's get travel perks and you think they should not is a bit nebulous. If you want to do something about it - give us some facts:

1. How much is an MP is paid (including perks)?
2. How much do you think they should be paid and why?
3. How much do we spend on (non work related) travel for these guys?
4. Hasn't there already been some work vis-a-vis trading salary for perks? How much?
5. When was a teachers salary ever comparable with an MPs?

Perhaps if you'd shed the hyperbole (BTW: what did they lose $2b on, and how do you know they were happy about it?) and skin up some facts you might get somewhere.

Salaries: http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyre...ination200.pdf

Actually, they get paid more, than the numbers i had read in media print... which i thought was enough. What is enough. Answer: Just leave the salaries where they are for now. (that answer question 1?)

I don't think they're giving value for money. Do you? We all have our own ideas about how much they should be paid. (that answer question 2?).

I'm not sure on the figures reported. This is where i have trouble with perk. 90% after 12 years service, for life. Even when you're off working for the UN? who knows. (will you allow that as answer to question 3?) And you?

Yes there has. The whole process is a waste of money in my opinion. And as I think they get enough already, there's no need to continue the process any longer. (that answer question 4).

To be fair, I read that on the forum here somewhere, something about the 70's (i had no reason to doubt it), so that could be factually incorrect. But if the averages quoted today, yes in the media, are anything to go by, they've had more than enough for long enough imho. Was that your point? (that answer question 5?).

I'm not out to prove anything. I disagree with the perks, I don't think they've earned them. Some people feel the same, some don't.