Invaluable info: by a REAL expert rider

[Ixion]

I just found this.

Want to be the fastest rider on the road ?

I think that anyone who could completely put into practice what he suggests would be one of the fastest, safest riders on the road.

And I don't think that you'd get better credentials for training bikers how to ride fast AND safe.

One thing he recommends differs from what I've always done.

I've always (tried) to brake on the approach to a corner, then hold a constant throttle on the entry, and accelerate from the apex out.

He recommends accelerating from the entry (ie throtle on all through the corner). I'm going to have to rethink my technique.

Any thoughts on this . What's safest, not what's fastest on the track. We're talking road riding here not racing.

[eliot-ness]

If I can see the whole corner on the approach that's the way I do it. Usually by scrubbing speed off by changing down with sometimes just a dab on the brakes, If I can't see the exit then I use your approach, start to accelerate from the apex. Both ways are easy on a tourer with good engine braking and plenty of low down torque. couldn't answer for the sports bike riders though, possibly a totally different technique. Looking forward to reading their methods.
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Just when you think you have all the answers, somebody comes up with a new question

[FROSTY:Me]

I think maybee what you are DOING and what you thing you are doing are different old son.
Even on the road the less time you spend in transition the better.
By that I mean NO throttle NO brakes -sorta the whole bike unloaded.
I'd suggest by accelleration this bloke means applying SOME throttle.
As an example -
Im coming into a corner -I see my braking point. I turn in. I wind on 1/4 throttle to load the chassis up and get some drive -I sight the exit and wind her up to full throttle.
If I snap the throttle open just after I turned in Id be on my ass on the road.

[Ixion]

I think maybee what you are DOING and what you thing you are doing are different old son.
Even on the road the less time you spend in transition the better.
By that I mean NO throttle NO brakes -sorta the whole bike unloaded.
I'd suggest by accelleration this bloke means applying SOME throttle.
As an example -
Im coming into a corner -I see my braking point. I turn in. I wind on 1/4 throttle to load the chassis up and get some drive -I sight the exit and wind her up to full throttle.
If I snap the throttle open just after I turned in Id be on my ass on the road.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Downchange, brake as necessary , then enough throttle to keep the engine just pulling the wheel - so it's not actually decelerating , but not really looking to gain any speed, until the apex then roll throttle on.

He seems to imply full rollon as he goes in - though I may be misreading that.

[FROSTY:Me]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Downchange, brake as necessary , then enough throttle to keep the engine just pulling the wheel - so it's not actually decelerating , but not really looking to gain any speed, until the apex then roll throttle on.

He seems to imply full rollon as he goes in - though I may be misreading that.

I apsolutely 100% promice he doesnt mean that. Unless youre on a totally gutless piece of crap (Like I am) If ya do that You'll end up on ya ass
Unless he's advercating (sp) the modern sportbike method--Point and squirt
Ya brake hard -snap her over hard -straighten up -and bang the throttle on in a straight line.
Doesn't read that way to me though.

[Ixion]

I apsolutely 100% promice he doesnt mean that. Unless youre on a totally gutless piece of crap (Like I am) If ya do that You'll end up on ya ass
Unless he's advercating (sp) the modern sportbike method--Point and squirt
Ya brake hard -snap her over hard -straighten up -and bang the throttle on in a straight line.
Doesn't read that way to me though.

No, on re-reading it, I think he's meaning what we all (I think ) are saying/doing. Brake to get speed set, then roll on enough throttle to just keep the bike driving (so it's not on the overrun). I think that's what he means by accelerate. Then from the apex (or when you can see the exit, the "get out of corner" point, anyway), give it whatever it takes.

'Tis a bit odd though, because I would have said that anyone who's actually ever GONE through an open road corner with the throttle completely closed would not want to do it again. Really weird feeling.

But off road you do it that way . Brake , slide, adjust, point, and hammer it .Straight of full brake onto full throttle. (Corse, sometimes it's brake,slide, fall off. But that's another matter)

Completely different situation but.

I dunno, I'll have a little play.

I think it maybe all comes down to what you define "accelerate" as

And after all these years a lot of it's so ingrained and instinctive that it's hard to figure anyway

[Two Smoker]

Im not the fastest road rider... but for me, its all THROTTLE, THROTTLE, THROTTLE!!!! I dont think on the road, i observe, predict and react

[Ixion]

Im not the fastest road rider... but for me, its all THROTTLE, THROTTLE, THROTTLE!!!! I dont think on the road, i observe, predict and react

So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ? And if so, is the throttle on point at the entry into the corner? Or do you do the brake-right-through-the -beginning of the corner approach?

[XP@]

Would like to see that guy ride!
rep points for the link

For the record on the bend, it depends if I can see my way out or not. If I can't then I hold the point where i am accelerating to maintain speed, then open up when the exit is clear. If i can see the exit then i am on the gas right after the brakes.

Interesting point here is you actually have to accellerate to maintain speed. Because with constant accelleration in a bend you will drop speed, traction and contact point distance... seen but do not understand the formula. but basically if you try mantain the same throttle your speed will drop therefore you have to accellerate to stay the same speed. the best place to see it is on a long sweeper, try maintain the throttle in the same position and see what happens...

[Ixion]

Would like to see that guy ride!
rep points for the link

For the record on the bend, it depends if I can see my way out or not. If I can't then I hold the point where i am accelerating to maintain speed, then open up when the exit is clear. If i can see the exit then i am on the gas right after the brakes.

Interesting point here is you actually have to accellerate to maintain speed. Because with constant accelleration in a bend you will drop speed, traction and contact point distance... seen but do not understand the formula. but basically if you try mantain the same throttle your speed will drop therefore you have to accellerate to stay the same speed. the best place to see it is on a long sweeper, try maintain the throttle in the same position and see what happens...

That seems logical, because if you are cornering there is a lateral force , being resisted by your tyres (if the lateral force becomes too great you lowside). So as the sideways force is constantly draining energy you will have to increase energy by applying accelerater

And now I've written all that, I don't think that it can be right. Because it would imply that if you tried to ride round in a circle, you would have to keep accelerating. Eventually you would be on full throttle, and start slowing down and eventually stop. Which is obviously silly.

Meh, it's too late at night to think about physics.

Thanks for the rep.

[Jantar]

That seems logical, because if you are cornering there is a lateral force , being resisted by your tyres (if the lateral force becomes too great you lowside). So as the sideways force is constantly draining energy you will have to increase energy by applying accelerater

And now I've written all that, I don't think that it can be right. Because it would imply that if you tried to ride round in a circle, you would have to keep accelerating. Eventually you would be on full throttle, and start slowing down and eventually stop. Which is obviously silly.

Meh, it's too late at night to think about physics.

Thanks for the rep.

You ARE right Ixion. In order to change direction you must accelerate. Remember that accelleration in related to change in velocity, not change in speed (a=dv/dt). And velocity has both speed and direction vectors.

It isn't neccessary to go to full throttle, but it is neccessary to have more throttle than would be needed to maintain speed in a straight line. The more lean, the greater the throttle setting needed.

[Two Smoker]

So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ? And if so, is the throttle on point at the entry into the corner? Or do you do the brake-right-through-the -beginning of the corner approach?

On the RG, i dont use brakes...

In racing, I brake pretty much right upto the apex, or just before the apex, and on the 400 snap the throttle open...

On the road on the 600, brake before the corner, get a bit of gas on, then wind it open...

[pritch]

So, d'you go straight from braking to full/hard throttle ?

Eh?

As I understand it the correct front/rear weight distribution while cornering is 40/60. To get that won't take much throttle but it will take some.

[Oscar]

No, on re-reading it, I think he's meaning what we all (I think ) are saying/doing. Brake to get speed set, then roll on enough throttle to just keep the bike driving (so it's not on the overrun). I think that's what he means by accelerate. Then from the apex (or when you can see the exit, the "get out of corner" point, anyway), give it whatever it takes.

'Tis a bit odd though, because I would have said that anyone who's actually ever GONE through an open road corner with the throttle completely closed would not want to do it again. Really weird feeling.

But off road you do it that way . Brake , slide, adjust, point, and hammer it .Straight of full brake onto full throttle. (Corse, sometimes it's brake,slide, fall off. But that's another matter)

Completely different situation but.

I dunno, I'll have a little play.

I think it maybe all comes down to what you define "accelerate" as

And after all these years a lot of it's so ingrained and instinctive that it's hard to figure anyway

Off road riding is very similar to MotoGP/500GP - brake late and deep, (slide) point, accelerate. That's why so many ex-dirt riders have been 500GP Champions.

125/250GP - Corner speed is king: brake late but maintain corner speed, accelerate early...

[Ixion]

Eh?

As I understand it the correct front/rear weight distribution while cornering is 40/60. To get that won't take much throttle but it will take some.

Strange. I'm jolly sure I replied to this earlier. It seems to ahve disappeared. Oh well

In racing, I brake pretty much right upto the apex, or just before the apex, and on the 400 snap the throttle open...

I think the weight distribution thing is the reason for the "just enough throttle to keep the bike balanced and under power" approach

But there is an alternative, as described by Mr Twosmoker. Brake all the way in and hammer it from the apex. All on or all off.

Racers use it, can't say I'm too keen to try on the road.

But that may just prove that I'm a conservative fuddy duddy.

Gravel uses the same thing - brake all the way in , skid (for me, fall off about this point), and full hammer to straighten up and power out.

Dunno. Wish Mr Bykeycop would comment. Those guys would know the best and safest way if anyone would.