A miner issue

[trustme]

Stayed at Blackball late Jan. One of the drilling crew let it drop that they had dilled a hole quite close to the face, there did not appear to be significant heat damage in the area. Was that good or bad ? who knows. He clammed up pretty quick when he twigged I was not a local.
Quite possible there are bodies that can be recovered. Could they have been rescued if people had gone straight in ? Who knows.
I doubt whether there were sufficient resources available to allow a proper rescue attempt within the limited window of opportunity after the initial blast.

For interests sake just how long was that window of opportunity & what was available in terms of men & equipment to do anything in that time period.??

[Maki]

If the miners survived the initial blast, then what was stopping them from walking out?

If the initial blast was unsurvivable, as some "experts" now seem to be saying, then why even consider a rescue?

Was the rescue (rescue teams, foreign experts, robots, etc. etc.) a scam? If the first blast was not survivable it was a total waste of time and money and all it did was prolong the agony of those who had loved ones in the mine.

Those who had loved ones in the mine were shown a video of the initial blast at a much later date. Why was this kept secret from them? To make them suffer for longer?

If the dangerous gasses were burned away in the initial blast, then what was stopping a rescue team from going in immediately?

[oneofsix]

If the miners survived the initial blast, then what was stopping them from walking out?

If the initial blast was unsurvivable, as some "experts" now seem to be saying, then why even consider a rescue?

Was the rescue (rescue teams, foreign experts, robots, etc. etc.) a scam? If the first blast was not survivable it was a total waste of time and money and all it did was prolong the agony of those who had loved ones in the mine.

Those who had loved ones in the mine were shown a video of the initial blast at a much later date. Why was this kept secret from them? To make them suffer for longer?

If the dangerous gasses were burned away in the initial blast, then what was stopping a rescue team from going in immediately?

injuries, stunned, unconscious

They didn't know if the initial blast was survivable or not so they had to try. Also if they want workers to go down mines they have to show them that they will at least give rescue a good try. Like most of the debates on KB the experts are drips under pressure making guesses, in this case I would surmise guesses in hindsight to make people feel better.

Was it kept secret? and was it much later? I remember they were shown the video whilst the rescue attempt was ongoing and as soon as they had retrieved it.

After the initial explosion no body knew what had happened until the first two made it out and phoned for help. By the time they got to the mine it was too late, the window of opportunity was closed.

[slowpoke]

Like most of the debates on KB the experts are drips under pressure making guesses, in this case I would surmise guesses in hindsight to make people feel better.

After the initial explosion no body knew what had happened until the first two made it out and phoned for help. By the time they got to the mine it was too late, the window of opportunity was closed.

Nice one: belittling highly educated, experienced and resourceful people from the safety of your Monday Morning Quarterback position. You've got no idea of the situation or what the hell you're talking about and denigrate people with years of experience and training.....thanks for your input, it's soooooo helpful.

People keep making the assumption there was a "window of opportunity", which is just a nonsense. Sure, immediately after the blast the combustible atmosphere may have been at it's lowest levels....but a toxic atmosphere was the result, and just because it was "safer" doesn't make it "safe", just as riding "slower" could be a helluva long way from going "slow".

For all those who think a rushed attempt should have been made to extract the trapped minors here are some things/questions to ponder:

1. You won't have a vehicle suitable/safe for use in the definitely combustible atmosphere
2. You have to allow for physically carrying/stretchering 29 men.
3. You need breathing apparatus for the rescuers and the miners, which also has to be physically carried/carted, along with enough medical supplies to treat significant injuries.
4. From my own experience with B/A you'd be very lucky to make it to the miners before you were into the red, even if you weren't carrying/carting anything, so you'd have to set up staging posts with more air supplies.
5. Any physical exertion or difficult environment (heat, difficult terrain, stress etc) dramatically shortens your air useage and available time under B/A. And the more air (cylinders) you carry, the faster you use it so it's the law of diminishing returns.
6. If your mythical "window of opportunity" really exists it will be closing within minutes not hours.

So you're talking about a massive logistical operation with a huge number of stretcher bearers, medics and support crews you are putting at risk. Do you really risk 60-80 more people to attempt a dangerous rescue of the original 29?

And putting it together within minutes?

You're dreamin'.

[Jantar]

.....
And putting it together within minutes?

.....

This is the point that many people just don't understand.

Yes, there was a window of opportunity imediately after the first explosion, and we now know that window may have been a couple of days. However, in an underground gas explosion it is normally accepted that the first 2 - 3 hours is the only safe period without onsite monitoring. Pike river did not have a rescue crew at the mine site 24/7 just in case a rescue was needed, instead it relied on the larger mining community getting together and forming a rescue team as and when required. This took longer than the window of opportunity lasted for.

Did any of the miners further in survive the initial blast? Because of the layout of the mine it is highly likely that many did. However continued survival would depend on them getting to and using the emergency gear available. Fewer would have been able to do that without assistance.

How many, died in the intial exlosion? How many suffocated in the toxic fumes? How many made it to one or more of the emergency shelters? These are questions we may never have the answer to.

[oneofsix]

Nice one: belittling highly educated, experienced and resourceful people from the safety of your Monday Morning Quarterback position. You've got no idea of the situation or what the hell you're talking about and denigrate people with years of experience and training.....thanks for your input, it's soooooo helpful.

.

just to clarify a point for you slowpoke, it wasn't the experts that gave their opinions at the time I was belittling, rather the so called experts that pop out of the woodwork months later to offer their hindsight. Those on site at the time did the correct thing according to what they knew at the time and it appears their action were correct according to what is now known.

[Smokin]

Mines rescue were using Rebreathers, Not B/A.

[avgas]

heh this thread went no where fast.

I am just happy I have my dad still. He will never work under that management again........

[slowpoke]

Mines rescue were using Rebreathers, Not B/A.

You are still talking about equipping 60+ people to enter an extremely hazardous environment within minutes of the explosion, and I doubt they'd have more than a dozen rescue rebreather sets (not the pissy lil' personal safety units everyone carry's that have extremely limited duration) on site during normal operations. So you're back to common or garden variety B/A. Even then, getting enough sets (50? if you ignore the miners) and enough cylinders on site within say 90min would be a huge challenge.

The sheer size of the rescue operation required, and the time crunch they were in, means it would have been pretty much impossible to pull it together within the time frame required....if a "safe-ish" period even existed.

There are classic similarities to the council workers who go down a culvert and become overwhelmed by fumes, then their mate rushes in to help them and by the time emergency services arrive they have two victims to rescue. 29 poor blokes dead is bad enough, but it could easily have been twice or three times that amount with a rushed rescue attempt.

[Winston001]

Nice one: belittling highly educated, experienced and resourceful people from the safety of your Monday Morning Quarterback position. You've got no idea of the situation or what the hell you're talking about and denigrate people with years of experience and training.....thanks for your input, it's soooooo helpful.

Uh...I read Oneofsix as being in total agreement with you. Bling to both.

[slowpoke]

Uh...I read Oneofsix as being in total agreement with you. Bling to both.

D'OH! Sharp as a bowlin' ball, me......... Sorry fella!

[oneofsix]

D'OH! Sharp as a bowlin' ball, me......... Sorry fella!

apology accepted.

[Oblivion]

You know..... There hasn't been an explosion, or anything of the sorts in the mine for a few months now. And we haven't heard anything about a rescue at all. Surely if the mine was safe to enter, it would be now and we could equip a dozen men with necessary supplies, and send them in there within the next few days?

[oneofsix]

You know..... There hasn't been an explosion, or anything of the sorts in the mine for a few months now. And we haven't heard anything about a rescue at all. Surely if the mine was safe to enter, it would be now and we could equip a dozen men with necessary supplies, and send them in there within the next few days?

Reports today say it is still not safe to enter. No explosion could mean totally toxic atmosphere, could also mean that it is just lacking a spark to set it off.
At the moment they aren't certain it is a body they can see, just that it appears to be one. The cabinet reportedly open could have been opened by one of the blasts. personally I would have thought the miners would be trained to open the survival cabinet and get the rebreathers on before opening the firefighting cabinet and it is reportedly a firefighting cabinet that is open.
I don't think there is a major rush as long as they do have recovery planned and its done safely.
It is tempting to believe that a team in the correct gear could do it but it is a long walk and then the time to gather and or assess the bodies and get them out, all without setting off an explosion. Very hard.

[Oblivion]

Reports today say it is still not safe to enter. No explosion could mean totally toxic atmosphere, could also mean that it is just lacking a spark to set it off.
At the moment they aren't certain it is a body they can see, just that it appears to be one. The cabinet reportedly open could have been opened by one of the blasts. personally I would have thought the miners would be trained to open the survival cabinet and get the rebreathers on before opening the firefighting cabinet and it is reportedly a firefighting cabinet that is open.
I don't think there is a major rush as long as they do have recovery planned and its done safely.
It is tempting to believe that a team in the correct gear could do it but it is a long walk and then the time to gather and or assess the bodies and get them out, all without setting off an explosion. Very hard.

Ok then. How about using geography to pinpoint the location of where this "item of interest" was found. Then drill a wide bore hole, to get men down there and check. All it would take is someone willing to take at least 5 minutes of mine exposure, to identify, and maybe extract whatever this thing is. If it was a body, then maybe a family could be put at ease for once.