Maybe education is not the answer to economic growth

[Swoop]

I've even seen a unit standard for "Mucking Out a Stable" .. this is a course for shovelling shit Fa Gawd's Sake !!!!

One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards. The more there are, the more they can "earn" in funding and providing qualifications.

Given half a chance they would write a degree qualification on "excrement transfer protocol"...


The taxpayer wonders where money is being wasted...

[scissorhands]

I'm a big believer in decentralisation of cities into small hamlets, all linked by monorails and high speed tubes.

The city economy way of living is unsustainable.

Future proofing for our kids requires major change that will happen too slowly as adversity will be the trigger rather than fore thought

[Pascal]

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

Same here. I went to a Technical school and the University students generally looked at us as if we were the dumb people. No matter that most of us had jobs, were earning long before them and are way ahead of the salary curve in general and probably more skilled as we had practical understanding of the subjects, not just a theoretical understanding.

It's one of the reasons I appreciate the ITO investment NZ is making as, with a few hiccups, it is a good system for pushing people into apprenticeships that not only benefit them but the economy as well.

And yeah, some unit standards may be "01648: Clean stables", but it is a skill in demand by their industry that they learn practically and hands on.

One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards. The more there are, the more they can "earn" in funding and providing qualifications.

Funded according to STM. A STM is calculated as "((No of trainees * Program Credits) / (Duration / 12) / 120)/ 4". Unit Standards / achievement does not come into it. The credits required to complete the program (Linked to difficulty and duration) is more crucial. Which is one of the things I believe the ITR is meant to be changing as there is a stronger focus on actuals and completions, rather than just enrolments over time. But, there's a lot of discussion at the moment and things are fairly entertaining and interesting

[StoneY]

shoot the unemployed, then you just get economic growth, and smart/hardworking people, we will colonize mars and divert asteroids into our orbit for mineral wealth in a matter of years

Methinks you read ben Bova's 'Grand Tour' series????

[Banditbandit]

Same here. I went to a Technical school and the University students generally looked at us as if we were the dumb people. No matter that most of us had jobs, were earning long before them and are way ahead of the salary curve in general and probably more skilled as we had practical understanding of the subjects, not just a theoretical understanding.

It's one of the reasons I appreciate the ITO investment NZ is making as, with a few hiccups, it is a good system for pushing people into apprenticeships that not only benefit them but the economy as well.

And yeah, some unit standards may be "01648: Clean stables", but it is a skill in demand by their industry that they learn practically and hands on.

Yeah .. some of the most intellegent people I have worked with are trades people .... and I've worked with some pretty damm stupid PhDs ...

Yes, Clean Stables is in demand ... but it is something that can be taught on the job - probably better taught in a stable with a rake, fork and shovel etc, than sitting in a classroom passing tests ...

Employers have transfered the cost of training to the taxpayers/students through the ITO/Polytech/unit standard system ... The cost of training is the fees (paid by students and is roughly) 25% plus the Government funding (taxpayer money) 75% ...

[mashman]

It would be better to encourage children to follow their aptitudes and interests first; to see what type of future they can build from that and to seek education when they wish to further their knowledge. See if they can build something - create something new - follow their interests.

Instead it encourages the wrong person for the wrong job. It encourages a culture of job hopping to increase the bank balance. How much productivity is lost in those 2 scenarios alone? You end up with zero continuity of service, products that can kill or injure (and they are everywhere, especially China), education systems that are YEARS behind the times and a population that's been so heavily spoonfed information, they don't really need to know anything about anything anymore because they know everything, coz they learnded it in a book so it need not be thought about again

[Banditbandit]

Instead it encourages the wrong person for the wrong job. It encourages a culture of job hopping to increase the bank balance. How much productivity is lost in those 2 scenarios alone? You end up with zero continuity of service, products that can kill or injure (and they are everywhere, especially China), education systems that are YEARS behind the times and a population that's been so heavily spoonfed information, they don't really need to know anything about anything anymore because they know everything, coz they learnded it in a book so it need not be thought about again

Or they can "Google" anything they want to know ...

[Pascal]

Yes, Clean Stables is in demand ... but it is something that can be taught on the job - probably better taught in a stable with a rake, fork and shovel etc, than sitting in a classroom passing tests ...

Well, this is the point of ITO's, is it not? There are on-job assessment of unit standards, where the student has demonstrated practical applicability of the unit. So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.

Yeah, there are theoretical units, but they apply to areas where there needs to be a theoretical understanding of the subject.

[mashman]

Or they can "Google" anything they want to know ...

Aye, beats then shit out of going to the library eh.

[Banditbandit]

Well, this is the point of ITO's, is it not? There are on-job assessment of unit standards, where the student has demonstrated practical applicability of the unit. So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.

Yeah, there are theoretical units, but they apply to areas where there needs to be a theoretical understanding of the subject.

Yes, that's true - and probably Cleaning a Stable can and should be be done that way - but it seems to be part of the pre-employment training ...

Yes, the intent of the ITO system was to allow that - but a lot of training in trades and technical areas has been transfered to the Polytechs - paid for largely by the taxpayers, not the employers ..

[Swoop]

There are on-job assessment of unit standards, ... So they're not sitting in a classroom learning to muck out a stable, but they're actually employed and doing it on a day to day basis, learning from their more experienced colleagues and are being tested on their ability to actually do it themselves.

Works fine in theory, but employers do use this method to keep a person in a mundane part of the process on a lower wage rate.
Not getting an assessor in until the apprentice is kicking up a hell of a ruckus.

[Pascal]

Works fine in theory, but employers do use this method to keep a person in a mundane part of the process on a lower wage rate.
Not getting an assessor in until the apprentice is kicking up a hell of a ruckus.

Yeap, it's currently not perfect. Modern Apprentices have it slightly better with mandatory site visits, but normal Industry Trainees have gotten the bad end of the stick for a while. I anticipate this will change from next year though and for the better as there will be more incentive for ITO's to actually complete trainees. It's certainly going to be an interesting year.

So are you guys in the ITO industry or on the periphery of it?

[Swoop]

Yeap, it's currently not perfect.

"Currently"??

"They" have had 20 bloody years to sort the problems out.
There is a lot to be sorted out as well...

[bogan]

Methinks you read ben Bova's 'Grand Tour' series????

that name does ring a bell... just wait till we build the polity AIs from Neal Ashers series, those smart buggers will sort everything out

[PrincessBandit]

Exactly. The recent (ie last 15-20 year) drive to put as many people as possible through tertiary education has achieved the following:

1) The devaluation of the degree
2) A wind-fall for MBA providers
3) Huge debt for graduates who now have to pay their own way rather than the brightest x% being subsidised.
4) A shortage of electricians, plumbers....

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

We were learning about the "education inflation" at tech in one of my papers - how once School C meant a job on leaving school, then it had to be a degree, now a diploma or degree is insufficient - it has to be a Masters or higher..... to achieve the same end. Even then a job is not guaranteed any more.

One problem here is that the ITO's generate an income from unit standards..............
Given half a chance they would write a degree qualification on "excrement transfer protocol"...

Even though said in jest (partly, at least) you are so right.

I'm a big believer in decentralisation of cities into small hamlets, all linked by monorails and high speed tubes.

The city economy way of living is unsustainable.

Future proofing for our kids requires major change that will happen too slowly as adversity will be the trigger rather than fore thought

Tried typing heaps of things to agree with you. They all sounded crap. So I'm going to go with "Yes, what he said".