Maybe education is not the answer to economic growth

[Woodman]

Just had one of my team graduate the motor trade pre apprenticeship course, and
there are not nearly enough apprenticeships to go around, and there will be another intake or two next year as well. A lot of these guys are paying off student loans for ages, and have long past given up trying to get into the trade they did the pre trade course for.

Do they look at the demand for apprentices?

Personally I believe the best way is to get an apprenticeship FIRST, and then do block courses/correspondence while you are working. Back to the future.

[James Deuce]

NZ's Universities ARE trade schools. The concept of a collegial university disappeared during the purges of the early 2000s and intellectual endeavour has been replaced with a conveyor belt system designed churn out lawyers, doctors and IT workers.

Combine that with the normal anti-intellectual attitudes of Kiwis and you see comments like the ones in this thread.

There is value in everything that everyone strives to achieve, be it a promotion at their McDonalds job, actively training for trade certification, being the best damn seasonal fruit picker ever, or wrestling with documenting how the rise of radical Islam and the collapse of the Capitalist economic system presage a potentially catastrophic re-organisation of the global world order and the rights of the individual.

The previous apprenticeship system seems to be viewed through rose-coloured glasses, but from personal experience in the engineering trade, more companies used it as a form of indentured, low-paid servitude than as a method for training professional tradespeople. The current system fails to meet demand and while some of you ridicule the detailed definition of what comprises the qualification requirements, at least the current apprentices aren't continually sweeping up swarf and changing drill heads at 2am and then expected to be at work at 7:30am to operate a machine for 6 hours before heading off to Polytech for 2, 2 hour block courses about stuff they'll never get to practice in the work place because some grumpy old bastard with an unlit roll-your-own perpetually hanging out of his mouth doesn't, and will never rate your ability to do anything except change the tea towels in the smoko room.

[Juzz976]

I think we should be more focused on improving the quality of life for everyone, not just helping the rich get richer and getting our country in more debt than we can handle.

Just a thought

[ckai]

But I do agree with you. Already we are seeing university graduates working at low-end jobs because there aren't any openings for them.

BA's don't count. They're not real degree's anyway

I wholeheartedly agree. I know so many people who have graduated in the last 10 years who are now in jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees/diplomas. What a waste of time and money that was for them! And the reason they couldn't get jobs in their fields was because there are so many other people that did the same qualification.

Sounds like you're talking about Management degrees...

I'm not even remotely in a job that my degree was designed for. It doesn't mean at all that I'm not using my degree. Completely the opposite in fact. I have a degree in Property Management and Valuation. Left uni to take on a volunteer position to learn how to run a company. Started getting paid peanuts out of choice to learn. That company was sold and I took up valuation.

Did that for nearly 3 years, but got asked to set up a company similar to before for less money. Jumped at it. There is nothing I learnt from my degree that I don't use every day. At least once a month I use the property side of things.

I did my degree because I was going to get into property development. Apart from doing a major renovation project, I haven't even come close to that. I don't for a second, believe my degree is a waste of money even though I "don't use it". The skills and knowledge I learnt I transfer to whatever I do. Just like any decent tradie would.

The underlying message I received through my schooling was "trades are for thick people". I'd be a sparky if I had my time again.

Tradies can be smart with their hands but they can be thick in other things that are common sense to some. One of the smartest people with science knowledge (90%+) I knew, was by far the dumbest for common sense. Seriously this guy was a muppet. But he could work out some serious shit. From experience, most super intelligent people are "brain dead".

Having a good mix of street smarts and school smarts is a win-win in my point of view.

[Winston001]

There is value in everything that everyone strives to achieve, be it a promotion at their McDonalds job, actively training for trade certification, being the best damn seasonal fruit picker ever, or wrestling with documenting how the rise of radical Islam and the collapse of the Capitalist economic system presage a potentially catastrophic re-organisation of the global world order and the rights of the individual.

Agreed. Unhappily, the value of a wide education is not recognised by most people because they only think of education as a means of getting a better job. It is a sensible perspective given that we all want the best opportunities but creates blindness of deeper issues.

We need our musicians, our artists, poets, writers, thinkers. Think about how bland life would be without art and culture. No movies, rock bands, youtube.....

I'd have loved to study philosophy, phenomenology of religion, and political studies purely to delve into how and why societies exist. Fortunately I discovered KB...... All the philosophy you can eat.

[Dave Lobster]

Think about how bland life would be without culture.

There wouldn't be as much tongue poking, foot stamping or stick waving, for starters.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I don't think she is saying we shouldn't have higher education. Instead she is challenging the widespread assumption that high education automatically leads to high economic growth. For example Switzerland has lowish university participation but the strongest economy in the world.

Egypt increased education from 1980.....and became slightly worse off on the poverty index.



Because as Dave says, they'd leave.

But I do agree with you. Already we are seeing university graduates working at low-end jobs because there aren't any openings for them. What is likely to happen is salaries will diminish for the better educated because everyone else will be better educated too.

Someone more crass than I might suggest that the Swiss economic juggernaut was powered by, well, Nazi gold, so they'd be going OK no matter what. Oh, and cuckoo clocks and absinthe.

[James Deuce]

Someone more crass than I might suggest that the Swiss economic juggernaut was powered by, well, Nazi gold, so they'd be going OK no matter what. Oh, and cuckoo clocks and absinthe.

Don't forget Pippi Longstocking. She'd beat that Mitre 10 Mega guy to a pulp.

[avgas]

All my life I have sat on the fence with this issue.
I know what a day on the shovel feels like. But likewise I know what a night in the books does to you.

Education is never a problem or solution for anything - its simply a key. Just the same as being kicked around as "the boy" is. Its a key to a doorway of opportunity. Opportunity is what will save the economy. But I guess this is a classic case where correlation does not mean causality, as the more educated we get (in work or study) does not mean the better off we are.

So I continue to sit on the fence and simply say this: If you can not better yourself AND improve the lives of others around you, what are you good for?
I feel this question stands for if you have an arts degree, or if you have 20 years experience of doing things wrong. You have to prove your worth in the world regardless.
Otherwise what are you good for?

[avgas]

Sounds like you're talking about Management degrees..

Not always true.
Seen many electronic development engineering jobs lately. Because I can tell you from past experience we have a new 100 graduates in this field every 3-4 months.
Likewise IT grads.
Commerce.
Law....

In fact I think you may find there is not a single graduate in NZ that didn't find it hard for the first job in their SPECIFIC field.

But university does not teach you all there is to know about a field, they teach you how to learn in that field. In general they teach you how to learn.
This can be applied anywhere.

[ellipsis]

....so many variables...truths ....half truths....the old wise words of 'work hard and you will attain your dreams/aspirations are very dependant on a bit or even a lot of luck...wisdom is not the domain solely of the learned...the dumbing down is purely a political means to an end ....more for them...less for the uneducated masses....dummies are real easy to herd...frighten...intimidate....poke fingers at.....and they make the parasites a whole heap of money....I treated my kids pretty much in the victorian way I was treated....arse kicked....forced to try....very un PC was I....even got big shit for it....and the best shit I ever put in my kids was the 'truth'....no matter how ugly...horrible or upsetting to them.....I am now one of the proudest fathers in existence....my kids are all growed up...hard workers...parents...can now stare me in the eye and have figured out long ago that , my way was o.k....none of them went far with their education at school....did enough....cant blame systems...can only blame parents...catch 22 in that one tho....if the parents are fucked in the head chances are greater that the kids will be....not always tho.... my pet theory is that all kids be made to read history, then they would all know what happened then and whats gonna happen next....

[imdying]

In fact I think you may find there is not a single graduate in NZ that didn't find it hard for the first job in their SPECIFIC field.

No way... I had jobs to choose from. Currently looking for another grad, to go with the one we hired 3 months back (who is fantastic). Hell, we try to pluck em straight from the programs before they graduate if we can.

[avgas]

No way... I had jobs to choose from. Currently looking for another grad, to go with the one we hired 3 months back (who is fantastic). Hell, we try to pluck em straight from the programs before they graduate if we can.

Nice one.
But in saying that do you hire a new one every 6 months? As that is the rate at which they are graduating at.....the supply far exceeded the demand.

Awesome stuff on hiring grads. To be honest I actually find some grads better than most people whom have been working for long periods of time. The good ones seem to have such a hunger for work - it boosts the whole place.

[imdying]

Nice one.
But in saying that do you hire a new one every 6 months? As that is the rate at which they are graduating at.....the supply far exceeded the demand.

Not as a rule, but as we expand they're not overlooked.

Awesome stuff on hiring grads. To be honest I actually find some grads better than most people whom have been working for long periods of time. The good ones seem to have such a hunger for work - it boosts the whole place.

I don't do the hiring, but I do use the old boys network to at least get them a foot in the door (ahead of grads from other institutions.

To be honest though, we would have hired more in the last three years, but most can't put a CV together that's worth looking at. I'm pretty sure we'd have picked up even more (maybe another 3 tops) of them in the last couple of years if not for that. Everybody that's studying moans their arse off when it comes to 'Interpersonal Communication and Business Writing' courses, but I'm here to tell ya, 99 out of 100 grads wouldn't know how to write a business document (like a CV for example) if their life depended on it.

I'm pretty blunt with the guys running the degrees now... I straight up tell them not to bother sending any retards, anyone who can't speak English, and to look over their CVs before wasting anybodies time.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Everybody that's studying moans their arse off when it comes to 'Interpersonal Communication and Business Writing' courses, but I'm here to tell ya, 99 out of 100 grads wouldn't know how to write a business document (like a CV for example) if their life depended on it.

I'm pretty blunt with the guys running the degrees now... I straight up tell them not to bother sending any retards, anyone who can't speak English, and to look over their CVs before wasting anybodies time.

abso blooody lutely.

In fact, here's some handy tips for those of you that need them:


http://i.imgur.com/HL1ZR.jpg