NOT the Scottish Thread

[Banditbandit]

Being Scots I can relate to that - but I don't dwell on it, I just get on with my life...

The Scots did .. they now have their own parliament and an element of self-rule as a result ...

And how many years has it been since Wiliam Wallace and his men fought off Edward Longshanks and his armies ?

[MSTRS:Me]

So much info - so hard to put together a coherent reply...

"Angry young men turning to..." I'd ask how much of that anger is learned from the parents?

"Twins who looked like one of each 'race' - treated differently..." To white NZers, this seems to be what Maori want...to be treated differently. I don't defend poor treatment - that's a given - but no-one who expects to be treated different has cause to complain when they are...

A story...in the 1920's, my NZ-born grandfather undertook a trek through the Ureweras. He met Rua, and was treated as an honoured guest, mutual respect and all that. (That respect for Maori stayed with him his entire life, much of which he spent living in Taupo long before it became a whitemans's mecca.)
If I did the same today, our friends the Tuhoe are likely to use the whitemans boomsticks on me and pop me in the umu...

[wysper]

Thoughts


You don’t need to blow out my candle to make yours burn more brightly.

or

Lighting your candle does not make mine burn any less brightly.

Humans seem to have an issue with this. They seem to think the lifting of another somehow lessens or takes something from them. If this belief was able to be changed then much progress could be made. People often resent others successes, hence the tall poppy syndrome. Seems to me it reveals a basic personal insecurity.

So when someone sees someone getting something, doesn’t matter what it is, training incentive, education program, settlement or whatever, they only look at it in terms of what the perceive it to be taken away from them. The opportunity for them to have or get something.

How can it be bad to give pride, self esteem, self sufficiency and self determination to someone?

On another point briefly, Banditbandit, when you say we did not ask to be colonised. That is true. A very valid point. But another point is I didn’t ask for you to be colonised either. I have been born in this country and love it. It is my home. My family is here. It is sad that others born in this country see me as a coloniser because I am white. I didn’t ask to be born white, I didn’t ask to be born in New Zealand. But I am white, I have been born in New Zealand, I am a Kiwi, my kids are Kiwi’s. I am proud to be a Kiwi/New Zealander or what ever you want to label me. As in the spirit of this thread Banditbandit, this is not an attack on you, just a chance to raise a point.

And finally for this post –

This one I think could get me in to trouble.

The whole one people, one nation thing. This I think is not the best idea.
For the sake of argument, lets just say we are all New Zealanders.
We are not ONE people. We are MANY people.
We are Maori
We are European
We are Scottish
We are Indian
We are Chinese
We are American
And on and on and on,
We are many colours

I happen to be white, my family tree has Scottish, English, Rhodesian, South Africa, Kiwi and lots of other nations blood running in various strengths through my veins. While they are all part of me, I am none of those, to me, I am a New Zealander, a Kiwi.

So maybe we ca be One Nation but many PEOPLE.

I am proud of the Maori history of our country. Even if I probably know not enough.
I am also proud of the history we are creating, the country we are creating. There will be growing pains. Our points of view will never be the same, but maybe our vision of the future can be similar enough that we can grow into a strong country. Maybe our future can be stronger for the pains of trying to heal the past.

[Banditbandit]

So much info - so hard to put together a coherent reply...

"Angry young men turning to..." I'd ask how much of that anger is learned from the parents?

Quite a lot ... some justified some not ...

"Twins who looked like one of each 'race' - treated differently..." To white NZers, this seems to be what Maori want...to be treated differently. I don't defend poor treatment - that's a given - but no-one who expects to be treated different has cause to complain when they are...

You seem to have missed the point of what I was saying (?) ... these are twins ... The white teacher expected the white looking one to be intelligent and succeed and the Maori looking one to be not so bright and successful ... based on how they looked ... that tells us a lot about the teacher's attitude towards her stduents and her expectations of different groups ...

What do you mean by "treated differently"? We expect to be treated as equals and as human beings - We already treat each other differently. Men say things to men they wouild never say to women, and vice versa ... bosses treat workers differently from other bosses ... adults treat children differently to other adults ..

I'm completely confused .. because we already treat each other differently - but when Māori suggest something that Pākehā think looks like different treatment Pākehā react negatively ? Is it because you don't want to treat us differently or because we are Māori ? To me it looks like because we are Māori ... whixch is racist - if it's because we are Māori then to expect us to act like Pākehā is colonsing behaviour

A story...in the 1920's, my NZ-born grandfather undertook a trek through the Ureweras. He met Rua, and was treated as an honoured guest, mutual respect and all that. (That respect for Maori stayed with him his entire life, much of which he spent living in Taupo long before it became a whitemans's mecca.)
If I did the same today, our friends the Tuhoe are likely to use the whitemans boomsticks on me and pop me in the umu...

Yes - today that would happen - very sad but true .. at least the broomstick bit .. not John Key for lunch ... we find such a comment quite insulting ... I won't beat you up for it ... but many of my friends would be deeply hurt and insulted .... and it's a worry that you think it is OK to make such a comment ..

[Banditbandit]

Thoughts


You don’t need to blow out my candle to make yours burn more brightly.

or

Lighting your candle does not make mine burn any less brightly.

Humans seem to have an issue with this. They seem to think the lifting of another somehow lessens or takes something from them. If this belief was able to be changed then much progress could be made. People often resent others successes, hence the tall poppy syndrome. Seems to me it reveals a basic personal insecurity.

So when someone sees someone getting something, doesn’t matter what it is, training incentive, education program, settlement or whatever, they only look at it in terms of what the perceive it to be taken away from them. The opportunity for them to have or get something.

How can it be bad to give pride, self esteem, self sufficiency and self determination to someone?

Totally agree ..

On another point briefly, Banditbandit, when you say we did not ask to be colonised. That is true. A very valid point. But another point is I didn’t ask for you to be colonised either. I have been born in this country and love it. It is my home. My family is here. It is sad that others born in this country see me as a coloniser because I am white.

I'm sorry - what I wrote was open to that interpretation. No, colonisers today are not white - they act like colonisers .. I have plenty of Pākehā friends who do not act like colonisers ...

I didn’t ask to be born white, I didn’t ask to be born in New Zealand. But I am white, I have been born in New Zealand, I am a Kiwi, my kids are Kiwi’s. I am proud to be a Kiwi/New Zealander or what ever you want to label me. As in the spirit of this thread Banditbandit, this is not an attack on you, just a chance to raise a point.

And finally for this post –

This one I think could get me in to trouble.

The whole one people, one nation thing. This I think is not the best idea.
For the sake of argument, lets just say we are all New Zealanders.
We are not ONE people. We are MANY people.
We are Maori
We are European
We are Scottish
We are Indian
We are Chinese
We are American
And on and on and on,
We are many colours

I happen to be white, my family tree has Scottish, English, Rhodesian, South Africa, Kiwi and lots of other nations blood running in various strengths through my veins. While they are all part of me, I am none of those, to me, I am a New Zealander, a Kiwi.

So maybe we can be One Nation but many PEOPLE.

I am proud of the Maori history of our country. Even if I probably know not enough.
I am also proud of the history we are creating, the country we are creating. There will be growing pains. Our points of view will never be the same, but maybe our vision of the future can be similar enough that we can grow into a strong country. Maybe our future can be stronger for the pains of trying to heal the past.

Agreed. Totally. I hope for the day when we can identify ourselves as New Zealanders and we all feel that includes us all ... I think it wil come because, as John Tamahere says "Race relations in this country aere being sorted out in the bedrooms of this country ..." Ever since the two groups met we have slept with each other ...

I was horrified when Paul Henry asked John Key if the next Prime Minister was going to look like a New Zealander ... Key should have exposed Henry's inherent racism by asking "What does a New Zealander look like?" There's a very good chance Henry would be thinking "white" even if he's not stupid enough to say it ... and of course, that whiteness is why many of my friends and family will not call themselves New Zealander ... that was a very public demonstration of why Māori do not identify as "New Zealanders".

Thank you for your post, which prompted more thoughts here.

[Toaster]

Speak for yourself . I was born here. I'm not European, I'm not Maori, I'm not Pakeha.
I am a New Zealander.

Rant end

Agreed. Now time to go ride.....

[MSTRS:Me]

My wife is a teacher aide at a predominantly white, decile 9 school. There are little shits of most colours there, but the ones with the worst attitudes are...you guessed it.
Now, these are kids just out of intermediate. They haven't had enough life experience to have developed such attitudes all by themselves. It's been 'nurtured' into them. It goes without saying that when the parents are called, the response is "Fuck off, honky. Don't tell my kid how to behave" or there IS no response.

I live in a lower, middle class (ha!) street, with about 70 houses in it. I think there are 2 Maori families living in this street. If there is ever a cop car parked on the street, guess what house/s they are outside. Same 2 houses that often have boozy parties, lots of noise and fights in the front yards. To be fair, most of the people at one of those houses have jobs.
There used to be a third. It was a P house. Which was too badly contaminated to be repaired. 2 kids lived in that house, and slept next to the equipment. I know this, because those kids went to the local intermediate where my wife was doing what she now does at a high school.

This sort of thing saddens me, because I also know quite a few very fine Maoris, who are just ordinary people. Proud to be who they are. Proud of their heritage. Hard working. Honest. They don't try to foist their culture on anyone. They also don't believe the world owes them.

I try not to stereotype (I have a great deal of Scots in me, and I'm tighter than a snapper's arsehole) - I would rather treat people as I find them and as I'd like to be treated. But can be very hard to see past the exterior and not have 'certain expectations' of what any particular person is like.

Yes - today that would happen - very sad but true .. at least the broomstick bit .. not John Key for lunch ... we find such a comment quite insulting ... I won't beat you up for it ... but many of my friends would be deeply hurt and insulted .... and it's a worry that you think it is OK to make such a comment ..

I don't follow. I am not likely to be made welcome, or even tolerated. I am likely to be harmed. Perhaps I was a bit frivolous with the umu comment - apologies if that offended. Maybe I should mention that until I had left high school, I don't think I'd even met a Maori. "They" all lived 'somewhere in the country, but not here'. Apart from stick games and poi in primary school culture class, my only exposure was Rod Derrett and his record, Puha and Pakeha. Oh, and being mugged by a pack of young Maori thugs at the age of 17. These things tend to stick...

[MSTRS:Me]

I hope for the day when we can identify ourselves as New Zealanders and we all feel that includes us all ...

+1. I identify as NZer. I don't like the us and them mentality that prevails. But is there a way past it? As long as accidents of birth put us in one camp or the other (it's more than 2 camps, but for simplicity's sake...) and there are separate schools, scholarships etc, becoming one is a pipe dream. Isn't it?

[Banditbandit]

My wife is a teacher aide at a predominantly white, decile 9 school. There are little shits of most colours there, but the ones with the worst attitudes are...you guessed it.
Now, these are kids just out of intermediate. They haven't had enough life experience to have developed such attitudes all by themselves. It's been 'nurtured' into them. It goes without saying that when the parents are called, the response is "Fuck off, honky. Don't tell my kid how to behave" or there IS no response.

Yes. Seen it. That's bad .. a mis-use or misunderstanding (or both) of what we are talking about ... this is a result of colonization - but to continue to blame white people for the bad behaviour of themselves and children is not acceptable ..

I live in a lower, middle class (ha!) street, with about 70 houses in it. I think there are 2 Maori families living in this street. If there is ever a cop car parked on the street, guess what house/s they are outside. Same 2 houses that often have boozy parties, lots of noise and fights in the front yards. To be fair, most of the people at one of those houses have jobs.
There used to be a third. It was a P house. Which was too badly contaminated to be repaired. 2 kids lived in that house, and slept next to the equipment. I know this, because those kids went to the local intermediate where my wife was doing what she now does at a high school.

This sort of thing saddens me, because I also know quite a few very fine Maoris, who are just ordinary people. Proud to be who they are. Proud of their heritage. Hard working. Honest. They don't try to foist their culture on anyone. They also don't believe the world owes them.

Yes, it saddens us too. We know it is a result of colonization .. but we also know that is not a reason, not an excuse .. and it doesn't abrograte individual responsibility ..

I try not to stereotype (I have a great deal of Scots in me, and I'm tighter than a snapper's arsehole) -

We all do - it's a human thing .. and nearly impossible to make sesne of our world with out doing it ... However there are positive and negstive stereotyping ...

I would rather treat people as I find them and as I'd like to be treated. But can be very hard to see past the exterior and not have 'certain expectations' of what any particular person is like.


I don't follow. I am not likely to be made welcome, or even tolerated. I am likely to be harmed. Perhaps I was a bit frivolous with the umu comment - apologies if that offended. Maybe I should mention that until I had left high school, I don't think I'd even met a Maori. "They" all lived 'somewhere in the country, but not here'. Apart from stick games and poi in primary school culture class, my only exposure was Rod Derrett and his record, Puha and Pakeha. Oh, and being mugged by a pack of young Maori thugs at the age of 17. These things tend to stick...

Yes, unfortunately we have reached a state where in some areas, such as Tuhoe, Pākehā are looked on in the first instance with suspicion, distrrust and even met with violence ... many of us wish that was not the case .. but gfiven recent events in Tuhoe in particular it's understadnable, if wrong ..

+1. I identify as NZer. I don't like the us and them mentality that prevails. But is there a way past it? As long as accidents of birth put us in one camp or the other (it's more than 2 camps, but for simplicity's sake...) and there are separate schools, scholarships etc, becoming one is a pipe dream. Isn't it?

No, I hope it's not a pipedream ... I've invested a lot of time and effort over the years in aiming for that pipedream ... I may never live to see it .. but I hope it comes .. After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

[admenk]

After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

I think you'll find lots Welsh, Scots and Irish would still consider themselves Celtic, as well as some Cornish. I see what you're saying though.

It's a bit like the "British" tag. Many English people (not all) would call themselves British, but I suspect a lower % of Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish would. One argument as to why that happens, is that if you're from the dominant group, it's easier for you to group everyone in as one and say let's all get on with it - as that usually means conforming to the dominant group's views and way of life (and version of history!)

My Dad is Welsh and my mum is English, and I personaly just say I'm British. However, if I lived a few hundred years ago, when the wars between the two countries were still remembered and feelings were raw, I might have had a very different view on it.

My own view is that it's fine to call yourself whatever you think is appropriate, and respect others who do the same. The world would be a very boring (if not more peaceful) place if we were all the same. Our differences can be a positive thing, as long as we look at them in that way.

[MSTRS:Me]

After all, the Celts learnt to live with the Romans, then the Saxons, the Angles, Normans .. and now are considered Anglo-Saxon ... One people ?

I don't think the Celts did learn to live with the Romans. Hadrian built a wall...
The wall was more a token, to say we'll stay this side and you stay that.
As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)

I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

[mashman]

As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)

Unfortunately only when it suits. This from an Englishman having spent 20 years growing up in Scotland. There's fuck all that's rational about the where and when the "racism" rears its ugly head... Fortunately for me, my mates would encourage me to leave the pub when the "nationalists" were baying for blood ...

I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

You mean the REAL white mother fuckers?

[Banditbandit]

I don't think the Celts did learn to live with the Romans. Hadrian built a wall...
The wall was more a token, to say we'll stay this side and you stay that.

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the catrtrle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..

As for the rest, isn't it more a case of friendly rivalry between say the Scots and the English? Like between NZ and Oz. We 'hate' each other, but tend to stand together when a 3rd party pokes its nose in (except the US, of course...)

Dunno - never been there .. but the battles between Willam Wallace and Edward Longshanks .. between the Highlanders, lead by Seamus the Shit and the English were certainly more than friendly rivallry ...

I guess at the end of the day, we are all a bit tribal. We'll fuss and argue and fight with the other tribes, but we'll unite against a common foe. Not so different, in some ways, eh?

That's about right ..

[retro asian]

Peters was right all along...

[MSTRS:Me]

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the cattle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..

Dunno - never been there .. but the battles between Willam Wallace and Edward Longshanks .. between the Highlanders, lead by Seamus the Shit and the English were certainly more than friendly rivallry ...

Have heard of the Picts. Never studied them, but thought they were just part of the Scottish Celts. They were the ones who painted themselves blue, were they not? What is known as 'woald' or 'woad'. As shown in Braveheart.

Edward Longshanks was a prick. The Scots were right to fight him. And they gave him a right old fright too. Although, ultimately, old Eddy boy did win. Sort of. Since wars continued to be fought for hundreds of years, with the English usually winning. So the Scottish hatred of the English continues to this day, albeit in a much watered-down form. But even then, it's complicated. My mother is aye frae Glasgie...she does not like the poms...but she is a lowlander, and they are hated by the highlanders as being English sympathisers. Or something.