NOT the Scottish Thread

[scracha]

The wall was to keep the cattle raiding Picts out ... at least to stop them easily getting the catrtrle back across the wall .. The rest of the countrry was already full of Celts - too late ..

Surely you mean Antonine's wall?

Can we bring religion into this thread too?

[Berries]

It's a bit like the "British" tag. Many English people (not all) would call themselves British, but I suspect a lower % of Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish would. One argument as to why that happens, is that if you're from the dominant group, it's easier for you to group everyone in as one and say let's all get on with it - as that usually means conforming to the dominant group's views and way of life (and version of history!)

Not the Scottish thread eh ? I was born and raised in Nottingham. Spent a few years overseas and then ended up in Aberdeen for six years. I might have considered myself British before then but the overt racism I put up with certainly changed that. Probably not helped by the fact Braveheart came out and the SNP were doing well at the time. Back then, early to mid 90's, there were pubs in Inverness that wouldn't serve English people. Fuck them, and fuck their fucking bagpipes. A mate of mine got thrown off a bridge for wearing an England rugby shirt for Christs sake. He was a twat mind. How the hell I ended up in McDunedin I don't know.

Some great people in Scotland, but I'll call myself English thank you very much. If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it. A bit like how I see the situation in NZ to be honest.

Edit - The drugs were good but

[jonbuoy]

Only the ones with a chip on their shoulder, some kiwis have a chip on their shoulder about the "poms", some have one about the Aussies or anyone not from their rugby province. Some Maoris have a chip about the white Kiwis. MOST people have better things to worry about, knuckle down and get on with life. Griping about history long gone isn´t going to help.

[marty]

Not the Scottish thread eh ?

You needed to be a round a few years ago to understand....

[MSTRS:Me]

If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it.

Another wee story. This one relates to highland vs lowlanders...

My mother left Glasgow in 1956 and came to NZ. She went back with my father and youngest sister (aged 7 at the time) in 1983. They did some travelling around and stayed in B'n'Bs. One night they pulled up outside one in the north, and my father went to sort out a room or two. No problem. Went back out to the car for mother, sister and bags and in they went. The woman greeted the two girls most warmly. And then my mother spoke.
Well, fuck me. Suddenly, it wasn't convenient, the little girl wouldn't be comfortable, they'd run out of porridge, other people were coming, whatever. Almost literally pushed out the door. Slam!!
I think they slept in the car, because that would be the reception for anyone from Glasgow.

So, young Berries, don't feel you are special...
But please do enjoy TV, Whisky, waterproof raincoats, sealed roads...

[Banditbandit]

Banditbandit , I commend you for your work in this thread but I confess to being saddened by the overall tone. Much as you profess to wanting a utopian future where we all march on as one Nation in harmony (me too) your viewpoint/Perspective was quite clearly a defensive and accusatory one.

Who is this 'You' you frequently allude to, 'You gave us a nail' 'you gave us VD' 'you took from us'. You seem very biased and separatist in your opinions, you quote facts but in reality they are facts as you see them or as you have heard them.You weren't there and neither was anyone else alive Today.In all honesty, if I was in your place, I too would be fighting to be heard and probably fighting to right the injustices of the past but in the real world, the world where we all have a future together, constantly playing the game of blame will only hold any real unification of peoples back.

I'm English, I recently lost a German friend, I never asked but his Father could have been among the ones that occupied/stole my country from me, his uncle could have been amongst the ones that imprisoned my uncle in a POW camp for 5 years his brother could be responsible for bombing the crap out of my Nana's Street. I didn't blame, accuse or ram 'facts' of oppression and injustice down his throat. He wasn't to blame, he owed me no apology, he wasn't there, he wasn't born.


I can't and wont justify the actions of the people that came before me but equally I will not be held accountable for those actions either. I see huge division between the viewpoints of Maori and other New Zealanders, more than I had ever imagined before I came here, it's a sad state of affairs and whilst people continue to be as one sided as you (not just you, the opposition as well) I don't see any truly united NZ in my Crystal ball, sadly.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. It’s taken me a couple of days to think about what I want to say.

First off all, I did try to point out that the use of the first person/second person plural was never intended as a separatist of accusatory approach. It’s a typically Māori way of speaking/writing and I am aware of how it comes across to Pākehā. I do not blame anyone living for the past. We not responsible for the actions of our ancestors (and mine are both Māori and Pākehā). The past explains a lot of today and therefore must be the place to start when deciding how to move forward. However we are not responsible for the past, only for the present and the future. I am trying to explain how we can move forward as an “Us”, not an “Us” and “Them”. An “Us” as New Zealanders.

So - let me try to frame this in third person terms.

Māori have always integrated the people who came here into their groups. Paerangi integrated the people of Aotea waka, and changed the name of the group to Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi. When the Pākehā sailed over the horizon, it was no different. They were welcomed for the benefits they could bring. They were given land, supported with food and other things, and even, in our case, defended from attack.
Form the Pākehā perspective the goal was assimilation of Māori into Pākehā culture – Māori were culturally, socially and intellectually to become brown-skinned Pākehā. To be a New Zealander was to be like a Pākehā.

But Māori intentions were something different. Māori did not wish Pākehā to become Māori. Nor did Māori expect to remain the same. The Pākehā brought a new world, and Māori wanted it. Just as Paerangi wanted the new things, ways of doing things, ways of being that Aotea waka brought. All arrivals have brought benefits to this country and Māori can see that. From a Māori perspective, the arrival of the Pākehā was nothing new – only the newness’ of the people who actually arrived. (I hope that all makes sense.)

Maori knew the world had become different and the new world and new peoples would be different. Pākehā did not. The ancestors thought they were creating a little slice of England in the South Seas.

I’ve lived in both worlds, and, from my perspective, Pākehā have not changed that much. Pākehā still expect Māori to behave and act like brown-skinned Pākehā. Māori do not expect Pākehā to behave like white skinned Māori.

Māori still see Pākehā as friends and relations – and that’s becoming literally true. Many of the older racist Pākehā I know are struggling to come to grips with the fact that they have brown-skinned grandchildren, whom they love dearly, but who are clearly from a group of people they have despised and put down all their lives.

These people are struggling to come to grips with meeting their sons and daughters partner’s parents – who are from the group they have despised all their lives, and finding them just as human as they are ... and they are learning to cope in Māori environments. They have found that they are not hated for being Pākehā as they have hated for being Māori ...

Many Pākehā have never learnt about Māori culture – either because it was not taught in schools, because the need has never arisen. But the opportunities have always been there. Māori have been forced to learn Pākehā ways. It’s not so much that we did not want to – but that we were forced – all human beings hate being forced ...

This is wandering a bit ...

Pākehā want Māori to become one people on Pākehā terms – usually “One People” means white people. Frequently, when students have said “Why can’t we be one people?” My answer has been “Yes. There are two people’s in this country – Māori and Pākehā – so let’s all be Māori.” The most common response back has been “That’s not what I meant” ... I knew that ... I’m just forcing them to confront their own ideas and what they mean ... and here I'm tryinjg to get you to examine what you mean by "One People" Is it a Pākehā people?


So to Māori “One People” is neither Māori nor Pākehā ... it’s an acceptance of both, and a hope that the future will combine the best of both worlds, for the benefit of all ... This is the Māori ideal.

Now – part of the problem is that when we talk about “Oneness” is it culture or anything else, we think of the culture as a unity. In reality it is not. There are many Pākehā New Zealanders who, when placed in a Pākehā cultural context have no idea what is happening or how to behave appropriately. Take a Westie and place him in a Remuera dinner party – and there’s a good chance they’ll be out of their depth and looked on as an “interesting novelty” or “colourful”., Reverse the situations and the Remueraite becomes a “snob” ... you get the picture.

Place some Māori on marae and they will be just as lost as many Pākehā (seen it) ...
There’s upper class culture and working class culture in NZ – Māori and Pākehā drink side by side in working class pubs ... There’s the cultures of different corporations – there’s the culture of Rugby Clubs, of Motorcycle Clubs, of chess and debating clubs – all are different. And that is all acceptable.

Why then when we talk of Māori and Pākehā culture is it so different? WE hjave many may different cultural situations in our country, and we don't all live in them all. Placing people in foreign cultural situations, whether they are situations within their overall culture, but strange to them, or from the culture of a different ethnic group – the feelings, meanings and reactions are the same ...

"One People" does not have to mean "One Culture" .. it doesn't now ... Māori accept difference - and deal with it .. Pākehā seem to deal with it by trying the change people and reduce the difference ... but only across ethnic groups ... Pākehā accept without question differences in cultural situations within their European-derived cultures ...

I hope this is making sense ... I think I’ll stop there for now ..

[Dean]

Some interesting stuff about where we came from.

We came from Tahiti and apparently they say it is our Hawaiiki our mystical homeland. I wouldnt mind moving down there and own some land find a nice wahine n settle down! Tahiti is beleived to be the birth of the Tattoo or (tatou) for Maori. Heres a Tahitan warrior.

Another interesting Island we came from is the Marquesan Islands amazingly beautiful place in French Polynesia. It is beleived here is the birth of the Marae, see pic.

And thought I might end things off with a comparrison with an Ancient Maori stone house to a Celtic Beehive. The narrow doorways, beehive like shape.

[Banditbandit]

Not the Scottish thread eh ? I was born and raised in Nottingham. Spent a few years overseas and then ended up in Aberdeen for six years. I might have considered myself British before then but the overt racism I put up with certainly changed that. Probably not helped by the fact Braveheart came out and the SNP were doing well at the time. Back then, early to mid 90's, there were pubs in Inverness that wouldn't serve English people. Fuck them, and fuck their fucking bagpipes. A mate of mine got thrown off a bridge for wearing an England rugby shirt for Christs sake. He was a twat mind. How the hell I ended up in McDunedin I don't know.

Some great people in Scotland, but I'll call myself English thank you very much. If they are going to hold on to shit from that long ago I really can't deal with it. A bit like how I see the situation in NZ to be honest.

Edit - The drugs were good but

I find your treatment by the scots to be reprehensible - and unfortunately I do know Māori groups who would treat you the same way. I also now Pākehā groups who would treat Māori the same way for just being Māori. That is not acceptable from either side and I would have hoped we would get over it. But we have not.

These groups I know of do not include the Māori politically active - who are heard on the national stage to make a point - but do not treat individuals badly because of their ethnic group. The activists who truly live by Maori values live by "What is the most important thing in the world? It is people, People, People ..." and we are all people

[MSTRS:Me]

Playing Devil's Advocate here...

I understand you to be saying that each group wanted something from the other.
Maori wanted from the incomers, things that Maori saw as benefitting their tribe (say). Muskets, clothes, blankets, baubles, superior boats...
The settlers wanted the Maori's land.

The concept of ownership got in the way. And still does.

[jonbuoy]

Thank you for the opportunity to respond. It’s taken me a couple of days to think about what I want to say.

First off all, I did try to point out that the use of the first person/second person plural was never intended as a separatist of accusatory approach. It’s a typically Māori way of speaking/writing and I am aware of how it comes across to Pākehā. I do not blame anyone living for the past. We not responsible for the actions of our ancestors (and mine are both Māori and Pākehā). The past explains a lot of today and therefore must be the place to start when deciding how to move forward. However we are not responsible for the past, only for the present and the future. I am trying to explain how we can move forward as an “Us”, not an “Us” and “Them”. An “Us” as New Zealanders.

So - let me try to frame this in third person terms.

Māori have always integrated the people who came here into their groups. Paerangi integrated the people of Aotea waka, and changed the name of the group to Te Ati Haunui-a-Paparangi. When the Pākehā sailed over the horizon, it was no different. They were welcomed for the benefits they could bring. They were given land, supported with food and other things, and even, in our case, defended from attack.
Form the Pākehā perspective the goal was assimilation of Māori into Pākehā culture – Māori were culturally, socially and intellectually to become brown-skinned Pākehā. To be a New Zealander was to be like a Pākehā.

But Māori intentions were something different. Māori did not wish Pākehā to become Māori. Nor did Māori expect to remain the same. The Pākehā brought a new world, and Māori wanted it. Just as Paerangi wanted the new things, ways of doing things, ways of being that Aotea waka brought. All arrivals have brought benefits to this country and Māori can see that. From a Māori perspective, the arrival of the Pākehā was nothing new – only the newness’ of the people who actually arrived. (I hope that all makes sense.)

Maori knew the world had become different and the new world and new peoples would be different. Pākehā did not. The ancestors thought they were creating a little slice of England in the South Seas.

I’ve lived in both worlds, and, from my perspective, Pākehā have not changed that much. Pākehā still expect Māori to behave and act like brown-skinned Pākehā. Māori do not expect Pākehā to behave like white skinned Māori.

Māori still see Pākehā as friends and relations – and that’s becoming literally true. Many of the older racist Pākehā I know are struggling to come to grips with the fact that they have brown-skinned grandchildren, whom they love dearly, but who are clearly from a group of people they have despised and put down all their lives.

These people are struggling to come to grips with meeting their sons and daughters partner’s parents – who are from the group they have despised all their lives, and finding them just as human as they are ... and they are learning to cope in Māori environments. They have found that they are not hated for being Pākehā as they have hated for being Māori ...

Many Pākehā have never learnt about Māori culture – either because it was not taught in schools, because the need has never arisen. But the opportunities have always been there. Māori have been forced to learn Pākehā ways. It’s not so much that we did not want to – but that we were forced – all human beings hate being forced ...

This is wandering a bit ...

Pākehā want Māori to become one people on Pākehā terms – usually “One People” means white people. Frequently, when students have said “Why can’t we be one people?” My answer has been “Yes. There are two people’s in this country – Māori and Pākehā – so let’s all be Māori.” The most common response back has been “That’s not what I meant” ... I knew that ... I’m just forcing them to confront their own ideas and what they mean ... and here I'm tryinjg to get you to examine what you mean by "One People" Is it a Pākehā people?


So to Māori “One People” is neither Māori nor Pākehā ... it’s an acceptance of both, and a hope that the future will combine the best of both worlds, for the benefit of all ... This is the Māori ideal.

Now – part of the problem is that when we talk about “Oneness” is it culture or anything else, we think of the culture as a unity. In reality it is not. There are many Pākehā New Zealanders who, when placed in a Pākehā cultural context have no idea what is happening or how to behave appropriately. Take a Westie and place him in a Remuera dinner party – and there’s a good chance they’ll be out of their depth and looked on as an “interesting novelty” or “colourful”., Reverse the situations and the Remueraite becomes a “snob” ... you get the picture.

Place some Māori on marae and they will be just as lost as many Pākehā (seen it) ...
There’s upper class culture and working class culture in NZ – Māori and Pākehā drink side by side in working class pubs ... There’s the cultures of different corporations – there’s the culture of Rugby Clubs, of Motorcycle Clubs, of chess and debating clubs – all are different. And that is all acceptable.

Why then when we talk of Māori and Pākehā culture is it so different? WE hjave many may different cultural situations in our country, and we don't all live in them all. Placing people in foreign cultural situations, whether they are situations within their overall culture, but strange to them, or from the culture of a different ethnic group – the feelings, meanings and reactions are the same ...

"One People" does not have to mean "One Culture" .. it doesn't now ... Māori accept difference - and deal with it .. Pākehā seem to deal with it by trying the change people and reduce the difference ... but only across ethnic groups ... Pākehā accept without question differences in cultural situations within their European-derived cultures ...

I hope this is making sense ... I think I’ll stop there for now ..

Don´t you think its time to move on? If the horrors committed by all sides in the first and second world wars can be put behind why can´t the treaty and other issues be put to bed?

[phill-k]

This thread started because of a comments in another thread about Pike River.

At the service yesterday one of the ministers uttered some words of wisdom which applies as much to this discussions as the their purpose yesterday.

I don't remember them exactly but when watching the service it struck me as been so relevant to this discussion and to the perceived issues you talk about.

We as a people can not change our history, however we can have an influence on the future.

Banditbandit you are obviously of some academic bent, you have narrated your version of your ancestors history well, however you continually speak of separatism, making statements about what Maori want, how Maori want Pakaha to be, this is New Zealand, we are New Zealanders, Maori, Pakaha, Asian, European, if you have NZ citizenship you are a NZer, we are Governed under the Westminster System, have laws, and responsibilities, yet you talk as if you wish to see some sort of parallel system exclusively for Maori, at many universities you already have Maori Specific aspects, you have had your language formally recognized, you are receiving large payments from NZ's government because of past injustices, you stated less than 800million dollars had been paid, but Tainui settlement was almost that, you have exclusive fisheries quota, you have exclusive rights to breech the conservation limits set to preserve our fish stocks, you benefit from our Hospitals, Education, Social Services, Housing, yet you still wish for more. AS long as your people hang onto the feelings of injustice you believe the colonisers have dealt you and hold us accountable for our ancestors sins, we will not move forward living in what is paradise and being NZers' who are accepting of each's own culture. We have accepted that Maori were done wrong in early times, we have negotiated settlements and continue to do so, we recognise your pain, but you keep rubbing salt in those ancient wounds making them flare up again and again, this prevents the very harmony you seem to crave. I truly believe that most NZers' are in fact respectful of your unique culture, and do not hold any form of animosity towards Maori, however some of your own, through their actions do you no justice. But that will always be.
A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha

[admenk]

Don´t you think its time to move on? If the horrors committed by all sides in the first and second world wars can be put behind why can´t the treaty and other issues be put to bed?

I assume some would argue that all the current treaty negotiations are doing just that.

[Bald Eagle]

A question for you to consider answering - Tell me what it is that Maori want, be specific, don't refer to righting past wrongs, but tell me what Maori want as we as NZers' go forward in the 21st century Kea Kaha

Well said.

[Swoop]

Kea Kaha

Do you mean Kia Kaha?

[phill-k]

Do you mean Kia Kaha?

I could say that from where "we" come from we don't use the i, but then it could also be that I posted in a hurry and didn't proof read the post, but I'm sure you all get what I meant.