Too big, too powerful, too much affect on "our" unsuspecting lives?

[Winston001]

Down Syndrome. Genetic disorder. 100% of Down Syndrome children vaccinated with MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) experience increased learning difficulties, damaged hearing and speech centres in the brain and increased chance of leukaemia. More than 75% will experience infantile spasms bad enough to potentially cause further brain damage to an already compromised organ...

Some of you people toss statistics around like the people affected don't matter...

Good post Jim and I have neither the time nor the knowledge to put other points.

Statistically, vaccination is a wonder treatment. It has saved millions of lives. Nevertheless you are right that when it appears to go wrong on an individual level, that can mean a lifetime of tragedy for the child and the family involved. I don't think anyone wants to minimse that pain.

Its a bit like the seatbelt debate in the 60s. There is always a risk a person will be held into their seat and injured because they couldn't get out. The risk is very low - but exists. So - do we abandon seat belts (or helmets) because 2% might turn out badly? Or choose the greater good and protect 98%?

The vaccination safety odds are far higher and ultimately we have to look to the public good. I repeat - there is 200 years of evidence in support of viral vaccination.

[oldrider]

The vaccination safety odds are far higher and ultimately we have to look to the public good. I repeat - there is 200 years of evidence in support of viral vaccination.

With respect, those records are presented from one viewpoint only (supporting vaccination) and to get the opposing or counter information, one is required to research it for one's self!

Remember how shocked the nation was at the attitude of our medical experts toward the administration of vitamin C as a last resort to turning off life support of the guy dying from cancer?

They (the medical authorities) did not not want to administer the vitamin C because it may harm the patient (who lived incidently, due to the vitamin C) "their" preference was to turn off the life support systems because they had exhausted their own available treatments!

The pig headed bias displayed publicly (on TV) by the pharmaceutically driven medical professionals in that case was astounding!

Nothing has changed and the alternative treatment would be even more stringently opposed if a similar situation arose again today!

The patient that the hospital "authorities" had recommended his life supports be turned off is testimony of how wrong they were is now flying his aeroplanes, sailing his boats, enjoying his family and life generally, thanks to the vitamin C administered at his family's insistence!

The hospital authorities (doctors) still believe that "they" were right!

[Milts]

I think Winston raises an excellent point with the seatbelt analogy. If I seem heated or aggressive in my posts it's because I feel strongly about this and feel that there is a clear 'right' in this debate (something not often the case).

It's like if you got into a car I was driving and didn't put on your seatbelt; "oh but my nana was in a car crash and the seatbelt trapped her and she burned to death". Yes a seatbelt can cause you to become trapped and even kill you. However in 99 crashes out of 100 it will save you serious injury or your life. By not using it you are ignoring the objective evidence that you are putting yourself at risk and instead taking a few isolated and statistically insignificant examples as gospel.

This would be less of an issue for me if the argument was "I choose to for myself because I prefer the freedom of not having a seatbelt". However narrow mindedly arguing that it is 'safer' based on a few incidences while ignoring the vast wealth of evidence is genuinely retarded, and people who believe and propagate that seriously bother me. To the point where they can walk home.

To be honest, it's about the same with vaccines - some risk of a negative impact but a strong chance of a positive impact. Except, often you're asked to make the decision about someone else (child) rather than yourself.

I do sympathise with JD's situation and other situations like that - medical professionals can be very arrogant and certain of themselves even when special situations arise. This is something which needs to be addressed, but don't forget that they have to deal with Joe public every day, and having Joe public telling you how to do your job sucks regardless of what you do. Imagine that... after a decade of medical training.

As to the influence of pharmaceutical companies on doctors and 'the need to question them' - 99.999% of the time people are paranoid about this it is for no reason. Don't forget there are thousands of medical journals and a few dozen pharmaceuticals competing with each other. If one of them makes a mistake it is picked up on by competitors and they get shit like you wouldn't believe for it. Of course in the case of the larger companies they have the assets/power to survive, but generally they are very wary. And there are a rude number of truly independent examining bodies (along with the 'independent' pharmaceutical sponsored research).

Also, excellent link there John.

[scissorhands]

My mum had a mate from church who got vaccinated for travel to India.

He never went because it killed him.

[steve_t]

My mum had a mate from church who got vaccinated for travel to India.

He never went because it killed him.

Can we get more details on this? Not the person's name obviously, but age, gender, type of vaccination given, previous medical history including known allergies and medication being taken at the time, what the cause of death was attributed to etc. Did you actually know this person? Or was it an anecdote from your mum regarding vaccination?

[puddytat]

Theres a great book written by someone whose name i cant remember.....
anyway its called "World without Cancer" & it goes into great depth about the Cartel type business of multinational pharmaceutical companies from thier inception as petrolieum companies,moving then into fertiliser & medicines etc.If you can find it its well worth the read & will make you you just a tad more cynical.I should say skeptical. It was written back in the early '80s & talks about Vit C & also the qualities of Apricot kernels...

[puddytat]

It was G. Edward Griffin....

[James Deuce]

I do sympathise with JD's situation and other situations like that - medical professionals can be very arrogant and certain of themselves even when special situations arise. This is something which needs to be addressed, but don't forget that they have to deal with Joe public every day, and having Joe public telling you how to do your job sucks regardless of what you do. Imagine that... after a decade of medical training.

Imagine when your wife has 12 years of "medical" training, and 25 years of paediatric experience and she gets told by a doctor who has NEVER done a paediatric run in a hospital and never done any post MD/FRACS study at all that she's not qualified to comment because she's only a nurse.

There is no clear "right" to this argument at all. Vaccination technology is in its infancy. In 200 years time physicians will be cringing at what their historic counterparts insisted was necessary, just as we do at stories of leeches and laudanum. The smallpox vaccination programme is an example of how to eradicate a virus. The MMR and 'flu vaccination programmes are a study in how to cause an organism to mutate and make money for the companies making the vaccine while they chase the mutations.

[scissorhands]

Can we get more details on this? Not the person's name obviously, but age, gender, type of vaccination given, previous medical history including known allergies and medication being taken at the time, what the cause of death was attributed to etc. Did you actually know this person? Or was it an anecdote from your mum regarding vaccination?

Mums gone now too, but I remember he was elderly. I dont believe my mother would lied to me about this, she was very honest about most things.

Gwen could be my new mummy if she wanted

[Ocean1]

only a nurse.

A doctor usually makes the mastake of uttering that particular combination of words just once. Your senior nurse, confronted with such annile arrogance is truely a figure one should be very afraid of.

And yes, innoculating for influenza is a bad idea, that's always been far too broad a front to fight across. Almost as bad a feeding stock animals antibiotics.

[ellipsis]

.....anyone who says that Jenner. Fleming, have not had a profound effect on the planets populace for the good would have to be a twat....Mengele could be defined in that way also, depending on your sway .....to quote numbers is so easy...1 in a 100,000 , 1 in a 1,000,000....as Neil Young penned...'numbers dont add up to nuthin'...same odds as lotto, I suspect....if mothers were given the chances of there child being one of the unlucky ones to scoop the pool, and they were given long enough to think about it and were given the real facts to chew over, then that would be called...making a scientific choice ....without backing away from the facts....of which there are irrefutable facts to bolster both sides of this debate....when the pro lobby group, who would throw their hands in with the ,trust the men in white coats brigade....can cross reference their reading skills with the volumes that these pharmaceutically aligned facts come from...can ascertain the authors of these facts are in fact , who they say they are....can tell us what pharmaceutical companies they work for....can show us the salaries these people are on....can swear that these companies are working for the good of all mankind and not to keep a bunch of multi billion dollar industries in the black ...can prove that these companies have not made some huge fuck ups...that they have not been testing new and unproven vaccines on small broke non white populations...with big backhanders to the pricks in POWER in these places....can actually swear that they are all knowledgable in these areas and not just voicing their well thought out opinions, based on some one elses words...then I might start listening ,if their bibliography pans out....meanwhile back on real world...where the mighty dollar rules and CEOs of multi national conglomerates make the rules and every other bastard who wants a bit of the empire,sucks dick and does what they are told...and clever people ...who can read .....develop some kind of superior knowledge of the facts ...because its all written down in the GOOD side of the ledger..condone without question,all they are told is "right"...then the world is fucked...you have dropped yer pants already...and yes I am a non conformist, I will not bow down to the word of the Lord, or the word of the Company Man or the misguided facts as quoted by Someone who has read them...I have also been part of this debate since it came into my life in the early eighties...I have met and been part of many other peoples unheard stories of the tragic consequences of what can go wrong...and tragically run across more as life goes on....so easy for a bunch of intellectuals...maybe kidless...maybe just pressured by the system, to have a dry opinion on such stuff....they should also think a little before taking the piss out of those who also know that they are 'right', maybe its a little closer to home than they think....a question....who are all these experts in the field of medicine that confer and concur on the safety aspects...we are always quoted the 'experts agree that blah blah ....', ...sounds exactly like the other ' they say this , they say that that bunch of cunts that seem to sway peoples opinions...specially when the media is backhanded to push 'they's' points....east is east, west is west, and........

[James Deuce]

Holy wall of text!

[Kickaha]

Holy wall of text!

I don't think they've heard of paragraphs in Darfield

[ellipsis]

I don't think they've heard of paragraphs in Darfield

parawhat?, is that some kind of new fangled parachute...if man were supposed to jump outta perfectly good planes, they woulda bin born with feathers stickin out ther arse....thats why I live on the Peninsula....to get home I just tear along the dotted line...

[freedom-wedge]

.....so many unheard or unheeded voices have been telling the world this stuff for so long...nobody wants to listen it seems....drug companies spread fear then thrive from it...the fearful populace are so easily swayed...and the truth-tellers disregarded and maligned....the bullshitters dont even have to try hard here...as soon as the bent media start quoting and reinforcing the lies its all too late...

....drugs, food additives etc that were banned in France, Russia and even the USA as far back as the early 80's were still being tested on the British, Kiwis, Aussies and third worldies with impunity all the way through ....

...education of the masses in the truths is nigh impossible when the money swished around to politicians, governments and those in the pharmaceutical and medical game by the drug companies ,to lie and cheat is so prevalent....

All the traits of modern Governance, familar patterns exist for all to see, but many be blind, choosing to focus on issues created to make us look left when we should be looking right, making your own mind up soon might involve penalty ?? ignore the creepage for to long and its always been to late history has shown.