Is the age of irresponsibility now completely upon us?

[puddytat]

We shouldnt confuse Spirituality with Religion...
Spiritual...."Of pertaining to or affecting the highest or purest moral or intellectual qualities of man"
Religion...."A belief in a devine or superhuman power"

[98tls]

We shouldnt confuse Spirituality with Religion...
Spiritual...."Of pertaining to or affecting the highest or purest moral or intellectual qualities of man"
Religion...."A belief in a devine or superhuman power"

Jesus H,no offence intended but whats all this gobblde gook got to do with people abusing there children for fuck sake,theres only one group responsible and thats those that sit in high places and decide the fate of these fuckers,spineless/gutlass/political crap the lot of them.Justice system my arse.

[puddytat]

Jesus H,no offence intended but whats all this gobblde gook got to do with people abusing there children for fuck sake,theres only one group responsible and thats those that sit in high places and decide the fate of these fuckers,spineless/gutlass/political crap the lot of them.Justice system my arse.

Not much really, just trying to show that being a spiritual person really doesnt have much to do with child abuse & I would just like to say that I couldnt agree with you more,but maybe it has something to do with a lack of moral fibre in our society to actually force a change with our politicians & lawmakers who often back both sides & often show a lack of moral integrity and fortitude themselves.

[98tls]

Not much really, just trying to show that being a spiritual person really doesnt have much to do with child abuse & I would just like to say that I couldnt agree with you more,but maybe it has something to do with a lack of moral fibre in our society to actually force a change with our politicians & lawmakers who often back both sides & often show a lack of moral integrity and fortitude themselves.

Moral fibre indeed,always found it odd that those in charge of this so called society seem to stand tall when it comes to filling the bucket and making some kind of vege soup in the name of rights for all but slink off when it comes to dealing with the shit that comes out of the pot.Then again once every 3 years we fall for it.

[mashman]

I've had a life-long interest in human psychology and have studied various subjects to do with society and human interaction over the years.

Money per se has never really been the problem, but rather the eroding of traditional values. My wife works in Early Childhood Education and is a qualified teacher. The parents she sees on a daily basis have absolutely no clues when it comes to caring for their children. Starting back in the 60's the eroding of morals, respect for authority was accellerated by the likes of our Dear Dr. Spock. Over time, the rebellious teens became the inept parents and they now have children who are completely without morals, respect and guidance.

I watched a few minutes of a popular comedy show tonight called "Modern Parents" and this typified the attitude of what seems to be the majority of parents. They are scared stiff of upsetting their chldren by setting standards and enforcing rules. While not liking what their 15-year old daughter was doing, they couldn't stop her or set boundaries for fear she would be angry with them.

Today, the kids rule the house and the parents go along with them lest they get upset. There are no consequences and TV shows constantly portray the children as being smarter, more intelligent and wiser than their parents and the adults they interact with including teachers. If parents dare to set rules and moral standards they are viewed as "controlling, old-fashioned, repressive" The difference between right and wrong is very simple and has nothing to do with religion, race, culture, language, law or anything else. "Right" works, "wrong" doesn't work. If after 40 years we have reached this point in civilisation, (!), the answer is quite clear.

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money . I'm not saying it's to blame for all of societies "ills", it's not solely to blame for greed, it's not solely to blame for murder etc... but it certainly doesn't help when it motivates people in the ways it does... sometimes on a global scale and it affects every life on this planet... if you need money to run your society you're always going to be stuck with the problem of providing financial coverage for the "ill" and expensive side society.

If there's no money, having children wouldn't be a career choice any more . Financially motivated crime wouldn't exist any more and there'd be no more expense for the lazy, only lack of effort, big deal, a status quo. How would humans with "criminal" tendancies act to that? Or "normal" people? Would they still be duplicitous? Would they melt down because they can't steal/lie etc... for a living?... And it's not only the bludgers that bleed the state and produce shite kids.

Kids are another thread entirely eh.

"the answer is quite clear" - yeah, those who hold the money bend society to their will and after 400 years it still goes on

[JATZ]

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money

A length of rope doesn't cost fuck all and there is plenty of trees with high branches around the place.
Hell I'd even tie the knot

[98tls]

Money is the only thing that stops us from being able to do anything about it... well, lack of money . I'm not saying it's to blame for all of societies "ills", it's not solely to blame for greed, it's not solely to blame for murder etc... but it certainly doesn't help when it motivates people in the ways it does... sometimes on a global scale and it affects every life on this planet... if you need money to run your society you're always going to be stuck with the problem of providing financial coverage for the "ill" and expensive side society.

If there's no money, having children wouldn't be a career choice any more . Financially motivated crime wouldn't exist any more and there'd be no more expense for the lazy, only lack of effort, big deal, a status quo. How would humans with "criminal" tendancies act to that? Or "normal" people? Would they still be duplicitous? Would they melt down because they can't steal/lie etc... for a living?... And it's not only the bludgers that bleed the state and produce shite kids.

Kids are another thread entirely eh.

"the answer is quite clear" - yeah, those who hold the money bend society to their will and after 400 years it still goes on

"working for families" should have been titled "another hundy for the pokies" surely,that was yet another nail in an already firmly sealed coffin,even more laughable is not content with fucking up a country the instigator has moved on to inflict an opinion on the rest of the worldWe used to be famous for great deeds with no 8 wire nowdays more so for a she thing with a deep voice bad teeth and a vision of the world similar to that of someone on speed at woodstock.

[Genestho]

One thing I've learnt - and I've learnt a helluva lot, from the inside at the coalface, through understanding people and situations on all sides, factual policy, through reports right across the spectrum - is there's no one particular reason or cause, it's a combination of many things that started a long time ago and we now reap what we sow.

I tried to list all the issues that bring us here, it's just too much to quantify.

We're definately at a crossroads but I've thought that for quite awhile.

Times have changed, I'm starting to feel it's too late and too big to peel back what's begun.
Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

We're in an even harder situation with recession - and it hasn't even bitten yet.

The signs are there that things will get harder, people with nouse will have to rise above it and find out the hard way how to be self sufficient (it doesn't seem self taught anymore) but society will continue to payout for and reap from those that don't.

How we continue to sustain this in the current climate, and I'm just touching the surface - I have no idea at all.

If you believe in it - To try to rehabilitate the screwups requires 600% funding, staff, procedural.

If you believe in it - to punish or deter - think current police staffing, tools, technology, courts sytems and jail.

To educate people in anything...

To assist people through Govt means - or to do anything to put things right - requires money and lots of it.

No laws, money, penalties or rehab subsitutes - that families and communities need to give a damn about helping their own again and that is the only thing that can be constructive and it comes for free.

[DarkLord]

I tend to agree with the points on spirituality. I am not interested in getting into a religious debate of any sort but what I will say is that religion - such as Christianity - does preach the concept of personal responsibility, and making one responsible for one's own actions - something we seem to be sorely lacking in society today. That message of facing up to your own responsibilities in the world - rather than endlessly bitching about "your rights" - would transform so much of our society if it took hold.

However, one simple solution is never going to fit everybody - regardless of the situation you will get people who will try and abuse and take advantage of the system. NZ society does unfortunately seem to be catered towards reaching out a helping hand towards those who have committed crimes etc, with less emphasis on punishment. There are perhaps some who would find this approach enormously beneficial for them as people - however there are probably far more who would - and will - abuse it.

I agree with Genestho - things will only continue to get worse and those who know how to rise above difficulties and ultimately take good out of them are going to be the ones who thrive. The useless, selfish prats who pass all of the blame for their own problems and actions onto everyone else may continue to be catered for by a seemingly soft cock society - however they will be continually more and more miserable as a result. No one will ever find peace deferring their own personal responsibilities onto others.

I know because I used to be in that frame of mind myself - trying to blame everyone else for everything - and it just turned me into a miserable, bitter bastard. Fortunately I am on a journey of learning to take responsibility for myself, even in a society that seemingly does not encourage it. My theory has always been if you want to change things around you for the better, don't go pointing fingers at others - learn to change yourself, and you will see better things begin to happen around you.

[Robert Taylor]

It ain't the fault of the doo gooders, they just come up with the idea. It's the fault of those who do the listening, and then react by implementing laws which really are of no real consequence. Lawyers get rich and the govt look like they're tackling an issue , where in reality the "violence" still goes on, law change or not!

Unfortunately we heal, educate, police, inter, maintain etc... to a budget and will never be able to address the "issues" of society in a manner that may be effective, solely on the basis that it costs too much

We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care. A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.

[Genestho]

I tend to agree with the points on spirituality. I am not interested in getting into a religious debate of any sort but what I will say is that religion - such as Christianity - does preach the concept of personal responsibility, and making one responsible for one's own actions - something we seem to be sorely lacking in society today. That message of facing up to your own responsibilities in the world - rather than endlessly bitching about "your rights" - would transform so much of our society if it took hold.

However, one simple solution is never going to fit everybody - regardless of the situation you will get people who will try and abuse and take advantage of the system. NZ society does unfortunately seem to be catered towards reaching out a helping hand towards those who have committed crimes etc, with less emphasis on punishment. There are perhaps some who would find this approach enormously beneficial for them as people - however there are probably far more who would - and will - abuse it.

I agree with Genestho - things will only continue to get worse and those who know how to rise above difficulties and ultimately take good out of them are going to be the ones who thrive. The useless, selfish prats who pass all of the blame for their own problems and actions onto everyone else may continue to be catered for by a seemingly soft cock society - however they will be continually more and more miserable as a result. No one will ever find peace deferring their own personal responsibilities onto others.

I know because I used to be in that frame of mind myself - trying to blame everyone else for everything - and it just turned me into a miserable, bitter bastard. Fortunately I am on a journey of learning to take responsibility for myself, even in a society that seemingly does not encourage it. My theory has always been if you want to change things around you for the better, don't go pointing fingers at others - learn to change yourself, and you will see better things begin to happen around you.

Nicely said - just with regards to the word punishment, in the 2002 Sentencing Act the word 'punishment' is mentioned just once.. in a subtitle heading. So what does that say...

We get what we deserve because there are too many in NZ infirm of purpose or just dont care. A positive step would be to reintroduce compulsory military training and do so with the gloves off.

It's said that when we abolished CMT is where we started to decline.
The obvious and practical benefits for youth and society could be huge if this were re-instated, but again, how are we in the current climate able to sustain this..

I read the reason it was abolished to begin with, was staff and money constraints back then... could stand corrected though..

[BMWST?]

I think a lack of spirituality is a major problem.

Most spiritual people I know, whether I agree with their concept and god name whatever, are some of the nicest people I know.

Sure no ones perfect, but everyone I have known from Christians to Pagans to Hari Krishna's, have a belief in a weighted heart or light filled existence, which dictates how they respond in the world.

Without a spiritual life, we may be no better than beasts.

Even though I am a fan of Dick Dawkins, I have had too many spiritual interventions and experiences, to deny the invisible forces that shape out lives.

Globally, religion is being attacked by world government as they want the donation bowl money. China is a prime example, where those who practise spirituality are condemned, tortured and murdered. In India government officials are touring the villages trying to educate the masses against spirituality.

But then you have Africa which is very spiritual, superstitious with much black magic, and look how corrupt Africa is. Polynesia's history has been very spiritual but constantly at war and eating each other....I just dont know.

i dont agree,some of most barbaric episodes can be traced back to groups of spiritualists aguing about whos spirit is the best.....

[Dadpole]

Too much welfare state hand-out shit that enables people 'breed-and-walk away" (to sound like a well known ad).

Welfare state + zero responsibility = the sorry-arsed un-motivated slack-jawed mouth-breathing improvident crap people we have now that are almost out-breeding the responsible ones

After all the long-winded debates about social theory, religion etc. I think Scumdog gets closest to the target.

[Gremlin]

In general, children are currently seen as either:
- an accidental or predictable outcome from fun things to do and/or
- a meal ticket

Children should be seen as:
- a massive burden/responsibility requiring huge amounts of time/effort, in order to add a valued member of society, whose needs are of primary importance

My mother teaches in low decile schools, and its a sad story where all too often parents either don't care a single iota about their child, with their own lives being much more important, or completely clueless/incapable of raising a child.

FFS, get with the program. I choose to not want children currently (in my late twenties), and any girlfriends need to be on the same page. Children require love, attention, time, effort etc. I know I do not have enough for them, and choose not to sacrifice other things for that.

Decisions have consequences, which you're supposed to own.

[scissorhands]

i dont agree,some of most barbaric episodes can be traced back to groups of spiritualists aguing about whos spirit is the best.....

I dont agree, those barbaric episodes you mention would never be carried out by a real spiritualist, but rather a war monger hiding behind a spiritual cloak, just appearing to be spiritual so as to garner support from good people, but definitely not of a spiritual persuasion. Or a religious leader, who is a sycophantic suckup toward an empire building state or monarchy he serves and pays for his life of luxury

Sort of like George Bush asking his ministers to say a prayer for the Iraqis. 'Oh lord, help us to kick their ass and get the gas!'