Safer journeys document - safer for motorcyclists - or not? Thoughts please

[p.dath]

Katman employs the exact same strategy - but his message is to modify the attitude to road use. That covers more than just speed, and history tells us that if he continues, eventually people will hear it enough to question themselves as far as their attitudes go - and moderate them. Much more useful for road safety.

+1. I support this view of Katman.

I accept that the road is a static non-moving object and is not dangerous on its own. I accept a machine is just a machine and is not dangerous on its own. Both of them represent little risk. It's not until you add a human that a sudden element of danger is added, and that it is us humans who need to regard ourselves at fault when something goes wrong, as opposed to the tools we are using - the road and a machine. Roads and machines do not cause incidents in the vast majority of cases.


But (and I'm not sure if Katman holds this view as well or not), I accept that no matter how well trained our road users are, they are still going to make errors of judgement. And for that reason, we need to improve our roads with a view of making them more forgiving of human error.

[MSTRS:Me]

Themselves? Who's fucking life is it?

Others? Have the same choice you do. If you don't like the fact that once in every million or so times you get into a vehicle you'll be involved in a serious accident then I suggest you don't do it.

I don't give a toss if someone takes themself out through their own stupidity, But I do have a big problem with the idea that others are often killed by people who just don't care enough to be sensible on the roads.

I know what he's doing. It might work in the short term for quantifiable variables with punitive consequences but it won't for an ill thought out message from someone with no political ability, no communications skills and questionable antecedents. Also, (even if one needs electronic help) he's way easy to ignore.

The bullet-proof culture that was rife here on KB, not that long ago, is not as evident as it once was, and a huge number of those that shouted dear Steve down now agree and support his admittedly sometimes distasteful, fumbling efforts.

[Ocean1]

I don't give a toss if someone takes themself out through their own stupidity, But I do have a big problem with the idea that others are often killed by people who just don't care enough to be sensible on the roads.

Either you've got a differnt idea of what constitutes "often" than most people or you've bought into the propaganda that there's a huge problem with fatalities on our roads.

Gwarn, have a stab at the number of hours driving needed before someone karks it.


And I'm moderately sure you've got no idea whatsoever how much any given driver cares about their fellow drivers.

[scumdog]

I don't give a toss if someone takes themself out through their own stupidity, But I do have a big problem with the idea that others are often killed by people who just don't care enough to be sensible on the roads.


The bullet-proof culture that was rife here on KB, not that long ago, is not as evident as it once was, and a huge number of those that shouted dear Steve down now agree and support his admittedly sometimes distasteful, fumbling efforts.

Like what happend today @ Coromandel eh...

[Spearfish]

How do you make a road safe for those who don't like or want safe?
Mention "keep it on the track" and see the responses from that.
How far does it have to go before a road is safe?
Farmers have had seven strand post and batten cheese cutters for as long as NZ has been NZ.

[Smifffy]

http://www.dogandlemon.com/article/a-comedy-of-errors

[Spearfish]

http://www.dogandlemon.com/article/a-comedy-of-errors

Interesting read, seems the only thing that will stop people being reckless/careless is the fear of getting caught.

[Smifffy]

Interesting read, seems the only thing that will stop people being reckless/careless is the fear of getting caught.

My take was that the best way to improve safety was to improve the design of the roads, barriers etc, and add safety features to vehicles such as airbags and ABS etc. Getting rid of sharp edges also helped.

A sign saying "drive carefully" doesn't do much.

[p.dath]

How do you make a road safe for those who don't like or want safe?

If you are telling me we have road users who don't like safe roads then I think I have a personal problem with those road users. That means they want unsafe roads, which can only promote greater injuries for everyone else. That is not the kind of attitude I want instilled in road users - they are going to hurt you and me.

How far does it have to go before a road is safe

Lets clear up one fallacy straight away - a road will never be safe. It's primary the driver/rider that represents the danger, and not the a non-moving static piece of surface they choose to use. However we can make a road more forgiving of human error, and that is what the KiwiRap program was about.
http://www.kiwirap.co.nz/

[Berries]

Lets clear up one fallacy straight away - a road will never be unsafe.

Corrected that for you. There is no such thing as an unsafe road, just road users using it in an unsafe manner.

[MSTRS:Me]

Either you've got a differnt idea of what constitutes "often" than most people or you've bought into the propaganda that there's a huge problem with fatalities on our roads.

Gwarn, have a stab at the number of hours driving needed before someone karks it.


And I'm moderately sure you've got no idea whatsoever how much any given driver cares about their fellow drivers.

I don't buy into the propaganda...but I can figure out that if 2 vehicles have a headon, chances are that one of them wasn't being controlled with due care and attention, and those in the other vehicle also pay the price.
The collective kilometres travelled per road death is also immeasureable, but it also has to be highly variable from one day to the next - we can go weeks without a fatality and then have 10 in a single day (and not necessarily in a single prang either).
'Observed behaviour' can go a long way in determining motorists' attitude to operating a vehicle. Indeed, attitude and behaviour after an incident they've caused can be very telling. Of course, most are simply unthinking - no 'malice' as such - but if they cared more, they'd maybe be a bit smarter in how they drive.

Like what happend today @ Coromandel eh...

Yeah. Bad memories...

[Katman]

Either you've got a differnt idea of what constitutes "often" than most people or you've bought into the propaganda that there's a huge problem with fatalities on our roads.

Gwarn, have a stab at the number of hours driving needed before someone karks it.

I'm sure that's of great comfort to the families of the innocent victims of fuckwits on our roads.

And I'm moderately sure you've got no idea whatsoever how much any given driver cares about their fellow drivers.

Society has increasingly become one whereby we don't seem to give a fuck about how our actions impact upon others. If that's an ideal that sits happily with you then it speaks volumes about yourself.

[BMWST?]

To be honest, it sounds like something I’d go a long way to avoid...



...because it’ got a distinct smell of animal farm about it.

Not to put too fine a point on it nobody’s got the right to tell me or any other adult what does and what doesn’t constitute ethical behaviour. It is not a basis upon which I would accept decisions be made regarding who should be allowed what access to our roads.

If I seem a tad touchy about people espousing specific behaviour I personally need to adopt it might be because I’m fookin’ sick of it. I’m particularly sick of government related interests telling me to be a good boy and save them money, because when it comes to backing up their policy changes they wouldn’t know shit from clay. We’ve been fed doctored data relating to government expenditure issues for so long now I don’t think anyone could find enough incorrupt data on which to base a genuine attempt at rational policy. It’s like a great steaming pile of idealistically tweaked dross trailing back decades and it reeks.

So how ‘bout instead blaming road users behaviour and cobbling up yet another idealistically driven piece of social engineering we use the road safety budget to make the roads safer? Let’s start with a search and destroy mission on the particular corner of that reeking pile of bullshit that is the justification for wire rope barriers’ with a view to destroying it’s credibility and forcing a roll-back eh? That orta account for next year’s budget too.

i dont agree our core behaviour(the royal our) has been changed re speeding and drink driving .The general attitude/behaviour HAS changed in those regards albeit a slow change

[Ocean1]

The collective kilometres travelled per road death is also immeasureable, but it also has to be highly variable from one day to the next - we can go weeks without a fatality

Ministry for the Environment: “In 2007, the total distance travelled on New Zealand roads by all types of vehicle was 40.2 billion kilometres. This equals travelling from the Earth to the Sun and back 135 times.”

NZTA: “Road deaths, year from Jan 1 2010: 329”

You get to travel, on average, 12 million, two hundred and eighteen thousand, eight hundred and forty four point nine eight kilometres to parity.

Didn’t try very hard, did you?

I don't buy into the propaganda...but I can figure out that if 2 vehicles have a headon, chances are that one of them wasn't being controlled with due care and attention, and those in the other vehicle also pay the price.

Wanna try to work out how many milliseconds of careful attentive behavior is required by two separate parties to avoid the driver error part of that statistic?
I’m all arithmeticed out, but that sounds like whole bunch of due care and attention to me.

'Observed behaviour' can go a long way in determining motorists' attitude to operating a vehicle. Indeed, attitude and behaviour after an incident they've caused can be very telling. Of course, most are simply unthinking - no 'malice' as such - but if they cared more, they'd maybe be a bit smarter in how they drive.

Pure snake oil. Either put numbers on it or try selling it at the circus.

I'm sure that's of great comfort to the families of the innocent victims of fuckwits on our roads.

You mean the ones, presumably, with loved ones still alive and using the road? I should think it would be.

Society has increasingly become one whereby we don't seem to give a fuck about how our actions impact upon others. If that's an ideal that sits happily with you then it speaks volumes about yourself.

Yeah yeah, everyone’s a cunt except you. Society has simply become one that drives a shitload more than it used to. And in spite of that the road toll has dropped dramatically in the last couple of decades.

And yeah, I’ll take some small credit for that, cheers.

i dont agree our core behaviour(the royal our) has been changed re speeding and drink driving .The general attitude/behaviour HAS changed in those regards albeit a slow change

Yeah. Maybe less people call in to the pub of a Friday night and have a beer or two before going home than once did. But, as always, the real killers aren’t the ones that transgress slightly, and they’re in no shorter supply than they’ve ever been.

[MSTRS:Me]

Yeah yeah - statistically I'm more likely to win lotto (if I buy a ticket).
I'm done 'discussing' shit with you...you've become quite obnoxious. Your posts don't seem to actually have a point, other than to waggle the finger of derision at those who actually have feelings and sensibilities re the standard of driving/riding that feeds the road toll.
Obviously the hairs on your arse have turned to fish-hooks...