Has John Key handled the decision to seal Pike River poorly?

[Banditbandit]

I thought Damien O'Connor (sp?) was the local MP?? He was certainly on TV enough when it happened.



You think Paris Hilton is hot? On what planet?

I think you're right. He appears to be a list MP.

How many of these leeches have you never heard of:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/

Jeez mate .. you want to comment on politics but don't even know who the MPs are or where they are from (List/Electorate) ... about the usual KB standards I guess ...

Yes, I think Paris Hilton is Hot ... but I won't fuck her ... very nice until she opens that fucken mouth and whines away ... that was my point - hot body but fucken brainless ...

I wouldn't be too worried by your opionion .. on KB AND a fan of The Office ... what more can I say ...

[Banditbandit]

What he said.
Talked to the old man over Christmas about it. I am so happy he left that job when he did, otherwise he would be on that list. He even admitted that if he was there there would be another 20 names on that list (he's a real hardarse to work for).

You won't ever hear the words from the actual experts on this one. But needless to say - none of them will go within 100miles of Pike River, and would not trust a single lie comming out of Peter Whittall mouth.
The guy is a snake, and the job was a disaster waiting to happen.

A relation missed out on a job with Pike River last year .. he's very pleased now they didn't give it to him ...

[mashman]

Fuck it, whilst I'm at it. Something for the too hard basket. The mine is inert, or so they say. Brownnose, i mean Brownlee says walking down a 2.3 km tunnel filled with methane is all but "impossible". Probably not wrong for a change. So why not bore down a la Chile. Don't shoot, there's more, then you can explain why it isn't possible... i don't mind being told things won't work and that i'm a complete fuckwit... Edison found 1500 ways not to make a light bulb...

Anyhoo, would it be possible to drill down to within, say 100 metres of where the bodies are supposed to be, then put in one of those "cleansing chambers", the ones that scientists use for keeping bad things in and keeping the outer atmoshpere out, then continue drilling until they break through? all without sparking another explosion?

If this was possible a Royal Commission could do their thing relatively easily without the need for walking 2.3km's and they may actually find some form of remains, however unlikely, but at least the families would have some form of closure. Don't be afraid, i'm curious as to why this wouldn't work.

I come in peace, shoot to kill...

[JimO]

there wont be any bodies the mine is a giant crematorium

[mashman]

there wont be any bodies the mine is a giant crematorium

hence the however unlikely bit... but it's worth knowing for sure? I'd certainly like to know, if only to prevent similar occurences at other mines.

[shrub]

hence the however unlikely bit... but it's worth knowing for sure? I'd certainly like to know, if only to prevent similar occurences at other mines.

I was chatting to a chap who has worked in mines the other day, and he reckons that the heat was such that all they'll find will be ash, dust, barely recognisable machines and rocks. The chances of getting any evidence of anything are about the same as me shagging Paris Hilton.

Coal mines are inherently dangerous and have a bad habit of exploding. There is an increasingly strong argument for leaving coal underground until we have developed ways of extracting it that don't involve sending people 2.3kms down a tunnel, and more importantly ways of using the stored energy that don't involve dumping a brazillion tonnes of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

When the technology to extract that energy cleanly has been developed our coal will be worth a shitload more than it is now, so let's leave it in the bank until it's worth more and does less damage to the environment.

[Kookie]

I said the fate of the bodies in the mine was none of our business ...

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.

[oneofsix]

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.

It is conjecture as to if going into the mine will provide any evidence until someone or something does. Until there is a willingness to try the technology will not be developed.
The Chilian miners were considered dead until discovered otherwise, the guy dug out of the mud in Aussie should have been dead as well. So perhaps evidence as to what happened is still there.

[Banditbandit]

I'm of the opinion, that it should be our business, as a nation. The way this has been handled, kind of sets a precedent, and I for one, would like to know that the families (and country) get some answers, and closure. I'd also like to see this as a massive learning experience, and would hope the nation takes away insight, that will ensure any such future disaster does not occur, or is handled much much better.

While hindsight can be a dangerous thing, it can also be a valuable tool.

It is conjecture as to if going into the mine will provide any evidence until someone or something does. Until there is a willingness to try the technology will not be developed.
The Chilian miners were considered dead until discovered otherwise, the guy dug out of the mud in Aussie should have been dead as well. So perhaps evidence as to what happened is still there.

Unfortunately for the families, the closure they want may not be possible.

The mine has been on fire with temperatures around 1,000 degrees. How many bodies do you think are left? Maybe bone fragments if we are lucky. Probably not any DNA to make identification of the fragments.

It's a coal mine and the coal has been on fire. That's not just piles of coal ... that's the walls, roof, and pillars they've left ... everything! How safe do you think the walls are? Is the remaining burnt coal wall and roof going to collapse on people going in and kill them too? Has it already collapsed? There might not be any tunnels left 2.3 ks underground ...

The mine is full of methane - you'd need the equivalent of a space suit to go down there and have a chance of getting out alive ...

It's true that we won't really know unless someone goes to look ... there's certainly a willingness to try - but how long will it take to develop the technology to allow that to happen - sure we have spacesuits (do you think NASA will loan us one or three?) But what about the safety of the burnt coal wallsand roof?

Maybe the learning is that we can't know everthing and we can not do everything. That's a hard thing to learn in a culture which creates the illusion that it can use technology to do anything and give us answers to everything ...

Maybe the learning is that we shouldn't be tunnel mining coal, especially coal as dangerous as the Brunner Seam ...

And maybe the learning is that sometimes thing go very wrong and people don't come back ...

[oneofsix]

Unfortunately for the families, the closure they want may not be possible.

The mine has been on fire with temperatures around 1,000 degrees. How many bodies do you think are left? Maybe bone fragments if we are lucky. Probably not any DNA to make identification of the fragments.

It's a coal mine and the coal has been on fire. That's not just piles of coal ... that's the walls, roof, and pillars they've left ... everything! How safe do you think the walls are? Is the remaining burnt coal wall and roof going to collapse on people going in and kill them too? Has it already collapsed? There might not be any tunnels left 2.3 ks underground ...

The mine is full of methane - you'd need the equivalent of a space suit to go down there and have a chance of getting out alive ...

It's true that we won't really know unless someone goes to look ... there's certainly a willingness to try - but how long will it take to develop the technology to allow that to happen - sure we have spacesuits (do you think NASA will loan us one or three?) But what about the safety of the burnt coal wallsand roof?

Maybe the learning is that we can't know everthing and we can not do everything. That's a hard thing to learn in a culture which creates the illusion that it can use technology to do anything and give us answers to everything ...

Maybe the learning is that we shouldn't be tunnel mining coal, especially coal as dangerous as the Brunner Seam ...

And maybe the learning is that sometimes thing go very wrong and people don't come back ...

Good points, time to let go. Some of the families already have and retrieving anything in the unlikely event there is something isn't going to help much. I had expected this from the start just didn't want it

[terbang]

Watching the announcements on TV certainly showed a contradiction of intentions to me.

The Police, saying that the mine was to be closed and that the remains of the miners were not to be recovered, handed over to the receivers who after some muttering about how sad they were indicated that they were still considering the recovery of the billions worth of coal that is trapped there.

[avgas]

He started well and could easily have built capital

Bullshit.
Anyone with any knowledge would have told you that day 1 after that explosion, there was not a chance in hell it was possible to get down there in the next 6 months.
Anyone saying otherwise, saying "oh we will save them" is trying to shine limelight down a deep fucking hole.

Key said what people wanted to hear. Absolute bullshit.
From recall he did the same at the start of the financial crisis.
Honesty is a pessimists game these day, optimists are a politicians game.

[avgas]

Watching the announcements on TV certainly showed a contradiction of intentions to me.

The Police, saying that the mine was to be closed and that the remains of the miners were not to be recovered, handed over to the receivers who after some muttering about how sad they were indicated that they were still considering the recovery of the billions worth of coal that is trapped there.

This is actually doable.
Seal the mine for 6 months - to a year. And the methane will push past that magic 15%. Then the mine is inert and can be mined again provided damp heat (self-combusting coal) tests are all good.

Who knows - mabey next time they will do it right and do what the engineering drawings say they should do (like more vent shafts) and stop paying off the Mines Commission (which is the cheaper option).

Who am I kidding, there is no such thing as legit mining in NZ....

[shrub]

Bullshit.
Anyone with any knowledge would have told you that day 1 after that explosion, there was not a chance in hell it was possible to get down there in the next 6 months.
Anyone saying otherwise, saying "oh we will save them" is trying to shine limelight down a deep fucking hole.

Key said what people wanted to hear. Absolute bullshit.
From recall he did the same at the start of the financial crisis.
Honesty is a pessimists game these day, optimists are a politicians game.

Sorry, it's you who are bullshitting (and using a strawman argument while you're at it).
Yes, it was obvious from day one they had all died. The day after the first explosion I was talking to a guy in a gas station in Blenheim who had worked there and knew most of the miners, and he told me they were all dead and that was the reason there was no urgency in the rescue. Why put people at risk to bring out a corpse?

John Key has a wonderful talent for saying what people want to hear which is why he is so popular despite having achieved virtually nothing in over 2 years in power (aside from the cycle track that is). At the start of the financial crisis he said virtually nothing and displayed a complete absence of ideas or even much of an understanding of what was happening. He's a great guy and has a lovely smile, but he's as shallow as a puddle.

[Banditbandit]

He's a great guy and has a lovely smile, but he's as shallow as a puddle.

Shit - I didn't think he was that deep ...