Auckland Grammar first state school to reject NCEA exams

[avgas]

reflection on the students

Actually it is. I find many students these days incredibly stupid.
There is a lack of willing to learn with a lot of them. They are more focused on a reward.

This has only changed in the last 15 years as well.

Its only a matter of time until kids start dieing while being exceptionally stupid.

[avgas]

NCEA is one of the most bullshit systems I've come across.

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

[MSTRS:Me]

NCEA - another great idea in theory, that is absolute crap in reality, and brought to you those who went through the system that taught spelling, grammar and arithmetic are not very important.

[oneofsix]

NCEA - another great idea in theory, that is absolute crap in reality, and brought to you those who went through the system that taught spelling, grammar and arithmetic are not very important.

Having argued with one of its supporters before it was invoked their main reason for NCEA was that it removed the failure stigma of the old school c and UE systems.
Having raised kids whilst the system is being introduced, last one just got her results, I can tell you the kids had a handle on the pass fail long before the teachers even understood how NCEA worked.
NCEA has potential but not enough resource or understanding to make it work. You would have to dismantle the "year" (used to be form) system before it gets close.
Also the way achieved, merit and excellent is decided is screwed. If you get very thing right except the merit question then you don't get a merit but if you only get 70% right and it includes the merit question then you get the merit. I prefer the old A,B,C, based on percentage of correct answers.

[mashman]

What's wrong with a 55% pass...it used to be called a "gentlemans pass" at uni.....do enough work to get through your exams, but not so much that you forgo a comprehensive social life........

i'm familiar with that style of education after all, a degree is a degree, gents pass or not.

[SMOKEU]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

I haven't come across any other systems, but the general idea when it comes to the actual exams and the marking criteria leaves a lot to be desired. I have gone through the NCEA system as recently as last year.

[Banditbandit]

what data are those results based upon?

i can tell you first hand that from my experience of teaching in the uk for 8 years and here for 4 years that the there is no parity of equivalent standards of testing at same age/ school levels. the actual difficulty of the work a 16 yr old student here does compared to a 16 yr old uk student is much easier.

thats not a reflection on the students, its the system, which again is not the teachers, its the government standards.

now to be shot down in flames i pressume.

I believe (tho' I could be wrong) that the OECD people come into the country and random sample with their own tests =- it is not based on the results of the country's own education system ...

I'm not going to shoot you down in flames - I have only ever taught tertiary level in New Zealand - you've experienced our system and the UK system and I value your comment that difficulty of work of a 16-year-old in Britain is higher than the average 16-year-old in New Zealand ...

Having argued with one of its supporters before it was invoked their main reason for NCEA was that it removed the failure stigma of the old school c and UE systems.
Having raised kids whilst the system is being introduced, last one just got her results, I can tell you the kids had a handle on the pass fail long before the teachers even understood how NCEA worked.
NCEA has potential but not enough resource or understanding to make it work. You would have to dismantle the "year" (used to be form) system before it gets close.
Also the way achieved, merit and excellent is decided is screwed. If you get very thing right except the merit question then you don't get a merit but if you only get 70% right and it includes the merit question then you get the merit. I prefer the old A,B,C, based on percentage of correct answers.

I'm inclined to agree. NCEA was a great idea poorly executed.

The idea was the recognize what students achieved rather than focus on pass/fail. From a Māori perspective, many of our children "failed" at school .. and carry that sense of failure their whole lives. I went through high school under the old School Cert/Uni entrance system - if a studnet failed School Cert they "failed" .. and had to repeat a whole year. Many of our chidlren "failed" and did not get the opportunity to try again... the system didn't recognise what they had learnt.

Under the NCEA system, student learning can be recognized - even if that is only half a year's worth of learning.

There are two issues I see - one you've highlighted - in the schools, and better execution would have helped.

The second issue is the recognition of the system by employers and the rest of the country. It was badly introduced, badly marketed and poorly explained. If that had been handled better, we might have more acceptance of the system, especially by employers.

[Banditbandit]

Actually it is. I find many students these days incredibly stupid.
There is a lack of willing to learn with a lot of them. They are more focused on a reward.

This has only changed in the last 15 years as well.

Its only a matter of time until kids start dieing while being exceptionally stupid.

The focus on the reward is a complete result of neo-liberal economics ... and education is just another commodity in the market place ... the neo-liberal Labour Party of the 1980s is the starting point ...

[Banditbandit]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

I haven't come across any other systems, but the general idea when it comes to the actual exams and the marking criteria leaves a lot to be desired. I have gone through the NCEA system as recently as last year.

Teenagers aways think "The system is bullshit" ... it's a reflection on the nature of teenagers, rather than a reflection on the system ... any system ...

[avgas]

The focus on the reward is a complete result of neo-liberal economics ... and education is just another commodity in the market place ... the neo-liberal Labour Party of the 1980s is the starting point ...

Don't get me wrong - I like the concept of a reward (I mean we all need one really).

But there is no emphasis on what that reward is, so kids naturally think its money. So when they don't get money - they give up.

Perhaps my old man, was old school - but I could get caught with drugs, get speeding tickets etc all these things were bad and I got punished. But if I started to fail at school.......hell was paid with gst on top.

Eventually I clicked it was not the fact that I was learning something, but that I was learning how to learn. But until that point - the reward was not to get my arse kicked.

[HenryDorsetCase]

That was the attititude of 2 of my 3 kids. Bring back a comprehensive end of year exam that really tests how much knowledge and ability the student has retained long term rather than just long enough to be assessed.

have you ever actually done an exam? Its about the worst tool for long term retention I can think of: all anyone* does is cruise, then panic, then cram like crazy, then IMMEDIATELY forget whatever they crammed because they're cramming for the next exam.

the NCEA thing should in my view be structured so that you can't get "enough" credits through the year: you have to do OK on the exam as well to pass. bada boom, bada bing, easy.


*well, OK, me.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The second issue is the recognition of the system by employers and the rest of the country. It was badly introduced, badly marketed and poorly explained. If that had been handled better, we might have more acceptance of the system, especially by employers.

I vividly remember interviewing for our last office junior a couple years back. I had to ask her what the grades were, what they meant, and what the equivalencies were. The job actually went to the one who explained it best, and she was brilliant. She has now left us for the next step in her career, but she was teh best we've ever had.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What is the best system you have come across?
No offense - but you seem rather young to have seen many bullshit systems. NCEA is not bad when I compare it to some of the bullshit systems out there.

that was fine apart from the "no offence"

[Jantar]

have you ever actually done an exam? .....

As a student of the 60s and 70s have I ever done an exam? Probably more than you have had hot breakfasts. And NO, I didn't cram at the last minute except twice in the 5th form and those two subjects ended up being the ones I did worst at. Maybe some students can scrape through an exam by cramming at the last minute, but they would be the ones who haven't learnt enough of their subject matter to proceed on to the next level. Those who crammed at the last minute and got reasonable pass marks would probably have passed without the cramming.

There is a reason why, back then, you could pass a subject at university wit a C- grade but not be permitted to proceed. It recognised that some students did just enough work to get that basic pass but didn't know enogh to be permitted to go any further.

[Banditbandit]

I vividly remember interviewing for our last office junior a couple years back. I had to ask her what the grades were, what they meant, and what the equivalencies were. The job actually went to the one who explained it best, and she was brilliant. She has now left us for the next step in her career, but she was teh best we've ever had.

Sounds like a good way to make the choice .. pick someone who knows exactly what they have done - then they might actually know what they are doing ...