John Key has been unable to turn our economy around

[phill-k]

What???
You do realise that Social Security and Welfare is the governments biggest expenditure???
How can you say that they don't add to our debt?
24.2 billion dollars a year

I was responding to the person that wanted long term unemployment beneficiaries sent packing and those that abuse the system, not the cost of the system its self, of which a large proportion are the retired and those who genuinely require and need the governments support to survive and live in NZ with dignity.

Mr Key has just stated that there are 300,000 working age people receiving various benefits, both unemployment and sickness among others, he states they are costing NZ such that we are all doomed, his tax cut of which 50% went to the top 12% of tax payers cost the country about 6 yrs worth of the above beneficiaries, if as many as 20% of those 300,000 shouldn't be receiving a benefit, the cost pales compared to his gift to his buddies.

[Winston001]

so it's time to flog the family silver:


As an analogy, John is spending more than he is earning at his job, so he sells his car and leases it back while he spends the money. Then he sells his house and rents it back, while Mike next door goes out and gets a better job that pays more and keeps his car and his house - and probably buys John's stuff.

The analogy is reasonable but needs to be accurate.

John is spending more than he earns because he has a sick child. He can't earn more money until the child is able to look after herself. The car money helps in the short-term.

That is essentially what social-democratic governments do.

As for the house, John's mortgage is $400/wk. He sells half the house and pays $200/wk to the new part-owners. He now has no mortgage, and can manage on his wages.

Mike is lucky enough to find a better job - John would like to but can't. That's life. Mike is switched-on and a go getter. He'll always be better off than John and in fact is able to help his neighbour by offering weekend work.

[mashman]

What???
You do realise that Social Security and Welfare is the governments biggest expenditure???
How can you say that they don't add to our debt?
24.2 billion dollars a year

That about $161,000 per "bludger" (159,000 bludgers). That's why they stay on the dole... can't blame 'em

[shrub]

This makes no sense.

You're thinking of spurious correlation here. It's like me saying the world has been heating up (global warming) because polar bears are becoming extinct. i.e. one is a product of another. I think you'll find a good strong economy drives crime down, not social welfare. A third world country will need a good economy in order to reduce crime, increase standards of living and actually afford social welfare which is only a mere short term solution to help out those who haven't jumped on the growing economy bandwagon.

Yes, you're right, the correlation is spurious, and it was a little naughty of me to imply one (I'm feeling lazy), but the literature is reasonably unequivocal in arguing that a major cause of crime and the other indicators of a disfunctional society is poverty and now research is showing that the wider the gap between the haves and the have nots, the higher the rate of drug abuse, crime etc

[JimO]

a anti national thread and no skyrider??

[shrub]

The analogy is reasonable but needs to be accurate.

John is spending more than he earns because he has a sick child. He can't earn more money until the child is able to look after herself. The car money helps in the short-term.

That is essentially what social-democratic governments do.

As for the house, John's mortgage is $400/wk. He sells half the house and pays $200/wk to the new part-owners. He now has no mortgage, and can manage on his wages.

Mike is lucky enough to find a better job - John would like to but can't. That's life. Mike is switched-on and a go getter. He'll always be better off than John and in fact is able to help his neighbour by offering weekend work.

A more accurate still analogy is john is living beyond his means for a long time and has children that demand all the toys possible and are spending the equity he has in his house. He also has the chance to take up a more highly skilled job, but his mates and his kids convince him to stick with his old job.

It was interesting listening to Key and John Campbell tonight - Campbell didn't handle the interview at all well. I would have challenged Key as to why he wasn't encouraging Mum and Dad investors to invest in income earning businesses (exporters, research companies etc) rather than services, and if he wanted to raise money from the citizens, rather than selling the future profitability of service providers he didn't issue government bonds.

And when he said that the money was being invested in assets, he was talking about schools and police etc - FFS, those are not assets, they are essential infrastructure. Assets have a realisable capital value and earn money. Is Key (or Campbell) really that stupid? My house is a (poor) asset, but the hot water and electricity isn't.

[MisterD]

It was interesting listening to Key and John Campbell tonight - Campbell didn't handle the interview at all well. I would have challenged Key as to why he wasn't encouraging Mum and Dad investors to invest in income earning businesses (exporters, research companies etc) rather than services, and if he wanted to raise money from the citizens, rather than selling the future profitability of service providers he didn't issue government bonds.

What exactly is Solid Energy (you know the company that fills ships with coal so that greenie protesters can chain themselves to them) if not an exporter?

Have you seen the paucity of investment options on the NZX? IMO this is a great way to boost the amount of $$ in our stock market and to give people an alternative to rental properties for investment. I'll be lining up to bring some of the money I have in the FTSE back to NZ when this happens, otherwise my diversification plans will be all about putting money in the Aussie market.

And when he said that the money was being invested in assets, he was talking about schools and police etc - FFS, those are not assets, they are essential infrastructure. Assets have a realisable capital value and earn money. Is Key (or Campbell) really that stupid? My house is a (poor) asset, but the hot water and electricity isn't.

Schools are an asset too, but why not build them under PPP?

[Scuba_Steve]

What exactly is Solid Energy (you know the company that fills ships with coal so that greenie protesters can chain themselves to them) if not an exporter?

Have you seen the paucity of investment options on the NZX? IMO this is a great way to boost the amount of $$ in our stock market and to give people an alternative to rental properties for investment. I'll be lining up to bring some of the money I have in the FTSE back to NZ when this happens, otherwise my diversification plans will be all about putting money in the Aussie market.

Problem I see right here is it'll probably be Chinese buying the shares then it'll just be them selling the coal back to themselves, cause while Key keeps pushing the "mums & dads" angle as the lube on the stick it will not be restricted to just them & thus I would expect the Chinese to end up with a large share.

[Gibbo89]

Actually you are the muppet, in the scheme of things there are as a percentage very few abusers of the welfare system and they add very little to our national debt. The benefits to society of having a well funded and sympathetic welfare system far out way the few that abuse it.

I'm not saying that the majority of them on the benefit are mooching, I'm saying that the system needs an overhaul to sort out those that are using the benefit to their advantage.

Especially those that are on the benefit and then work on the side without informing WINZ or whoever on the work they are doing.

[shrub]

What exactly is Solid Energy (you know the company that fills ships with coal so that greenie protesters can chain themselves to them) if not an exporter?

Have you seen the paucity of investment options on the NZX? IMO this is a great way to boost the amount of $$ in our stock market and to give people an alternative to rental properties for investment. I'll be lining up to bring some of the money I have in the FTSE back to NZ when this happens, otherwise my diversification plans will be all about putting money in the Aussie market.



Schools are an asset too, but why not build them under PPP?

Solid Energy is an exporter, yes, but the only one and I don't think it's a particularly smart idea to bring private ownership in (in the medium and long term it would be expensive to NZ Inc). As for the paucity of options on the NZX, do you think adding a few SOEs would be a solution? Your understanding of diversification is obviously a little flawed if that's all it would take to bring your money to NZ.

And I know of no commonly used definition that would call a school an investment asset.

[phill-k]

I'm not saying that the majority of them on the benefit are mooching, I'm saying that the system needs an overhaul to sort out those that are using the benefit to their advantage.

Especially those that are on the benefit and then work on the side without informing WINZ or whoever on the work they are doing.

I'm sure there are some that do as you state but do you really believe they are responsible for the position NZ finds itself in, Tonight Key stated there are 300,000 working age people on benefits, including unemployment, sickness amid others. Even if 20% of those are fraudulent that equates to 750000. Keys gift to his buddy's being 50% of the recent tax cuts cost more than that.

[puddytat]

Today 19:17Flip
Oh great, sell Solid Energy at the same time the price of coaking coal which was $150 tonne is predicted to reach $500+ in the near future. Coaking coal is the high value stuff used to make steel.

Sounds like a crock of shit to me.

Funny that eh....sell it off just when the price of energy world wide is set to skyrocket,so that 49% will be raked in somewhere else.

a anti national thread and no skyrider??

He's here....you just dont know who he is now.

[Dave-]

that's ok, JK still has 2 more terms before we can compare him to helen clarke....

[pete376403]

I heard JK on NatRad tonight suggesting NZ investing organisations "such as NZ Superannuation and ACC" would be investing in these floats.
Could this be the same ACC that was apparently on the bones of its arse and required immediate levy increases to survive.

Who tells the bigger porkies - Key or Smith?

[Winston001]

I heard JK on NatRad tonight suggesting NZ investing organisations "such as NZ Superannuation and ACC" would be investing in these floats.
Could this be the same ACC that was apparently on the bones of its arse and required immediate levy increases to survive.

Who tells the bigger porkies - Key or Smith?

ACC does not have the money reserves to pay claims into the future. There is no debate about that. It's a statistical fact.

The relevant question is whether NZ Super and ACC should be investing in NZ assets? Portfolio theory says NO. Always spread your risk. Given that these organisations are NZ based, they should invest outside NZ because we are such a tiny economy.