Who is sick of all the Waitangi bullshit?

[Banditbandit]

Now don't go asking for evidence and facts. If we all based our "opinions" on truth, where would the world be?

Yes. But that's the point - the evidence is not there to support these contentions ... so people need to change their conceptions of "us" and "them"

Yeah .. I know, I'm an idealist at heart ..

[SMOKEU]

Banditbandit - the amount of time you spend trying to defend the Maori races honour always surprises me. Don't you have like a job or something better to do?

[Banditbandit]

Banditbandit - the amount of time you spend trying to defend the Maori races honour always surprises me. Don't you have like a job or something better to do?

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description - 'cause I don't see it as defending Māori honour, but educatiing Pākehā ...

[SMOKEU]

Yeah, I do have a job. I work in a Maori environment. It's a stretch, but I could argue that doing this is part of my job description.

So in other words you're on the unemployment benefit? Or sickness benefit? Or some kind of government benefit.

[Banditbandit]

So in other words you're on the unemployment benefit? Or sickness benefit? Or some kind of government benefit.

No. I work in Education. The students don't come back for a few more weeks ...

[MSTRS:Me]

We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.

This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..

A wonderful (pipe?)dream.
Just how does giving money to a tribe help the unemployed, criminal-type urban Maori and their children?
And haven't the tribal lines become so blurred as to barely exist outside their 'traditional homelands'?

[avgas]

Are you saying that we should dump anything that was brought here by the immigrants since 1792?

Yep. Seems fair - New world with new way. I would even be keen to get some kind of mix in there creating a new hybrid style to NZ. Like when you great ANYONE there is a Hongi. A new style of martial art that is some kind of combo form of Wing Chun with Taiha (sorry if that spelt wrong).
I even reckon we ditch the pav for something new.
Lets put the New back in Zealand, and pull our ideas from the clouds.

Though I would like to know what you still use from that time that has not changed in some massive amount.

I am sure there is something from 1792 that we still use the same that has never been upgraded or replaced.....but can't put my finger on it.

[MSTRS:Me]

I am sure there is something from 1792 that we still use the same that has never been upgraded or replaced.....but can't put my finger on it.

There, there. Not everyone is blessed...

Edit: You must spread, etc. Somehow I don't think it'll be a problem spreading it for Avgas...

[Banditbandit]

A wonderful (pipe?)dream.
Just how does giving money to a tribe help the unemployed, criminal-type urban Maori and their children?

Almost every group that has a claim settled (I don't kniow them all, so I can't say all) have put money into education scholarships for their people ... no other conditions excerpt that you must belong to that family (iwi, hapu, whanau) group ... I have had students who have come from jail, and gained degrees through these scholarships and are now in good jobs - and their children will get better qualifications because of it ..

Almost all groups have set up their own health initiatives. Have a look at Whanau Ora on Maori TV on Thursday evenings - an example of a Whanganui initiative (not funded from a treaty claim) ... Ngati Awa Social Services ...

These are not limited to non-city people .. but city people as well.

And have a look at what Waiperara are doing in Auckland .. not even an iwi group, but an urban Maori group ..

And haven't the tribal lines become so blurred as to barely exist outside their 'traditional homelands'?

Maybe. We almost all come from several different groups now, but we all generally identify and are active memebrs of one group ... The urban Māori who have lost touch are an issue for us. Waiperaira are clearing doing something about that ... but it is an issue we are trying to address - not always with much success - the individualism of Pākehā cultrre they have learnt makes it hard for us to reach them .. and many are rebelious - against us as well as Pākehā .. such as the Mongrel Mob ... they hate EVERYONE ...

[R-Soul]

Firstly- re your earlier post - I did not realise that there was a cutoff date - all I ever saw were more claims - my apologies (I did tell you I have not much knowledge of past history).

Now we disagree. The basis of our legal system is in our European-derived culture. The concepts you speak of here are not the same in Māori culture.

The legal system is essentially the formalised exercise of power and the rules that go with it. The democratic system we live under was never part of tikanga, and it's imposition is an act of colonization. We have very different ways of selecting leaders (and don't look at the runanga structures, which has elections - that system was imposed on us by the colonizing government. (No votes - no funding).

I agree that the gauranteed Māori seats in Parliament are undemocratic in it's purist sense - but that's not a problem for us. Democracy is the problem for us, not the gauranteed seats ... it's the reverse for Pākehā. And don't think for one moment I am arguing for a theocracy or a fuedal system, as some of you might think. Māori power structures are, if run properly, inherently more fair as they do not disenfranchise the minority. And that's the big thing - We look after the minorty as well as the majority - so there is not either/or - just a consensus.

You say what you are not arguing for, but dont explain what you are arguing for. there doesn't seem to be a proposal to something constructive here. What is it exactly that Maori want that would make it not "enforced by the coloniser"? Was democracy actually enforced by teh colonisers? Or did maoris choose to use it because it was just the fairer system? What is the Maori system? On what basis is a chief made a chief? Is this system applicable to a large modern society?

We hear about the different wonderful Maori power structures, but never actually see any details. How does it work?

Also, how do you propose that these different idealogies be implemented simutaneously? Do you propose that a compromise be found and run as a single system? Or that two be run separately, with one set of peoples subject to one set of rules, and another to another? Because this stuff should be sorted out, and the whinging stop, so that we can move on as a single nation.

And honestly if there are no ways of doing this realistically, and keeping in mind that times have moved on, then why carry on whinging about something that could ever be? Be part of the solution, not the problem.

Keep in mind that Maoris (while they may have been unfairly treated in some cases) have also been part of one of the fairest systems on the planet (relatively speaking) over the last 200 years, then maybe it is time to bite the bullet, be thankful it wasn't communism or socialism or slavery or autocracy or Apartheid or many of the other MUCH WORSE western systems that was imported, and move on.

I do not know of any Māori who gets free laptops at uni other than from family trusts. (And I work in Tertiary Education) .. happened once, not any more. And Māori working in tertiary education objected just as strongly to the organisation that did it as Pākehā did.

Or get special home loans and support. It's actually harder for us to get home loans to build on ancestral land, as we can't put up joint-ownership land as collateral. They might get loans from family trusts, but how does that differ from Pākehā family trusts?

Or get first choice of Uni places - can you show specific examples?

http://www.auckland.ac.nz/webdav/sit...Guidelines.pdf

http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/no-de...nly/1071/38690

http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/index...y-maorisupport


http://healthworkforce.govt.nz/our-w...upport-funding

http://www.otago.ac.nz/services/maori.html

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/services/mpf/

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-focus/wardens/funding/

http://teu.ac.nz/2010/11/changes-to-...-and-pasifika/

http://www.justice.govt.nz/publicati...funding-agency

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/pr210204.doc

Do a google search on "Maori funding assistance"

Actually I dont have an issue with the government funding indigenous national culture and language at all as it is part of the national identity. But I dont see why one NZ citizen or resident should be financially assisted in everyday ahead of another based on race. I am SO over that shit.

Hmm ... dependency syndrome was learnt from the Pākehā, and Pākehā have it too. I know severasl Pākehā women who have had many chldren - to increase their DPB payments. I don't know any Māori women who have done that. Most of the ones I know with heaps of children simply did not use contraception - a failure or a lack of knowledge? But of both. Some of us are working to break all of that in our people.

Potato, potatoe

And, if the land had not been taken from us, we might all be in a better position today than we are. The theft of the land was recognised as worng at the time, but still continued, right up to 1974. We need resources to work to better our people. Those resources were taken by the colonizers.

So hang on - you're saying that you recognise that TV News has given you a distorted view -(I agree it has) but you are still willing to comment based on that distorted view?

My perception is my reality is it not? And in politics, perception becomes reality.
At least I knwo wenough to know that the Maori Party fools cannot be teh voice of reason. But I just dont see any press releases by any other respected social or cultural leadership that counter their hate speech.

Secondly, as late as 1967 the Government changed legisltation to force Māori owners to sell land - to the Government - this was finally stopped in 1974. This is not all grievances hundreds of years old ... there are grievances which date from times within the lifetime of people reading this now.

I actually did not realise that it was that recently. Was the land taken in exchange for fair value in money? If that is the case, extradition of land is a common thing in most countries where the greater public good requires it (eg for development of highways, zoning to residential land, etc). Better infrastructure means more jobs and better opportunities for all. As long as the payment was fair.

While the moderate (and even conservative) Maori voices are there, the media has no interest in reporting them. There's no controversy there - it's not attractive to the audience ... again, the media is distorting your view.

Let me see .. there are Maori in Parliament in the National party (are they going to be extremists?) The Labour Party (are they extremists?) ACT, Greens, NZ First (Is Winston an extremist? He's Māori) ... Sir Graham Latimer and Sir Wira Gardner were both very senior officials in the National Party ... former GG Sir Paul Reeves (Anglican Bishop - an extremist?) ... and Māori vote across all parties - reference below ...

Frankly the mere existance of the Maori political party should be an affront to the intelligence of moderate Maori. A Party that claims to speak for all regardless of their particular situation is just nonsense, and purely racist in nature. One that can only appeal to the most uneducated, who can be enticed with promises of rewards etc - seen it all before in Africa.

Why is there not a united Maori leadership (not a political party with conflicts of interest) that has the support of all Maoris can really speak for all Maori on things Maori in nature (i.e the Maori culture)?

I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?

Well the unevenness of the playing field for one. If you are a New Zealander, act like a New Zealander, and not a precious "chosen one". Compete to win on an even basis. Hopefuly when all the claims are laid to rest, and past injustices redressed, we can all carry on as equals, with equal opportunities for all, and mutual respect for each others cultures.

The difference is that Afrikaans is a European-derived culture, like New Zealand's Pākehā culture. Māori culture is essentially Polynesian.

Actually Afrikaans is derived from quite a few cultures, including western and African (and even some Asian) - but yes, mosly Dutch. But I dont see how that is relevant?

[SMOKEU]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

[Teflon]

I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?

Google "Maori are".. the very first suggestion Google shows is "lazy"

[Shadowjack]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

FFS
You've embarrassed yourself (even further) with this one.
The only thing worse than an informed troll is an un-informed troll.

[SMOKEU]

You can dress a monkey in a suit, but in the end, it's still a monkey.

[JimO]

Banditbandit - you need to admit that the NZ goverment is a very racist government. It's biased towards giving Maori people more rights and opportunities than white people. It's about time this racism stops. The whites in some ways are worse than the Maoris, they just bend over backwards and give the Maori people whatever they want. Someone has to stand up and fight for the rights of white people, otherwise we'll soon have an Apartheid like regime over here.

auckland supercity anybody?? millions of dollars for the maori board. what for??