Hi everyone,
I'm wanting to get a general opinion on what type of battery is good/bad and which one people would recommend is the best.
I need to buy a new battery, my current one is pretty shot and no longer holds a charge hence the bike wont run
L-Plate Rider
I need a new battery
Hi everyone,
I'm wanting to get a general opinion on what type of battery is good/bad and which one people would recommend is the best.
I need to buy a new battery, my current one is pretty shot and no longer holds a charge hence the bike wont run
BMW Motorrad
If you can make it on Kiwibiker you can make it anywhere.
Honda Lover
yousa
plastic fabricator/welder here if you need a hand ! will work for beer/bourbon/booze
come ride the southern roads www.southernrider.co.nz
Forum whore
motobatt is meant to be okay from what i've heard
Originally Posted by White trash
Forum whore
I have not yet finished writing this but...
Batteries come in many different types and sizes and we need to make sure the unit we fit is suitable for the application you have in mind. If we go back to the old fashioned lead acid battery (now called a flooded cell) your parents grew up with. These go back to 1859 and were invented by a Frenchman. They are effectively the oldest rechargeable battery known and have obviously had a fair amount of development over the years. The lead / acid batteries ability to supply high surge current means that the cells maintain a relatively large power to weight ratio and that coupled with low cost, make them attractive for use vehicles – particularly once electric starting became the norm. To function properly, these batteries do require you to add distilled water occasionally. This is important on a 60’s British bike as voltage regulation is a bit rough and it can get high enough to cause gassing and water loss.
Since the 1980’s we have seen the rise of the ‘sealed’ battery. Technically these are all VRLA batteries (valve-regulated lead-acid battery). Because of their construction, VRLA batteries do not require regular addition of water to the cells. VRLA batteries usually come in two flavours:
• Absorbed glass mat battery (agm)
• Gel battery (gel cell)
These batteries are often colloquially called sealed lead-acid batteries, but note that they always include a safety pressure relief valve. The name "valve regulated" does not wholly describe the technology; these are really "recombinant" batteries, which means that the oxygenevolved at the positive plates will largely recombine with the hydrogen ready to evolve on the negative plates, creating water and so preventing water loss. (ie you never need to top them up like you do in an old lead acid ‘wet’ battery) The valve is a safety feature in case the rate of hydrogen evolution becomes dangerously high. Note that these sealed batteries are still lead acid and share many features of the old wet flooded cell units. One reason they are so popular is that you don’t have to add water which means one less chore.
Lets look at these modern units in a little more detail.
Absorbed glass mat (AGM) is has the electrolyte (acid) held on the glass mat separator by way of capillary action. AGM batteries were developed by Concorde Aircraft Battery, in the late 1980s in San Bernardino California. The AGM battery technology was developed to be a warm weather, vibration resistant, and chemical alternative to the expensive Ni-Cad batteries in both naval helicopters and fighter aircraft.
AGM batteries are just like flooded lead acid batteries, except the electrolyte is being held in the glass mats, as opposed to freely flooding the plates. Very thin glass fibers are woven into a mat to increase surface area enough to hold sufficient electrolyte on the cells for their lifetime. The fibers do not absorb nor are affected by the acidic electrolyte they reside in. These mats are wrung out 2-5% after being soaked in acids, prior to manufacture completion and sealing. The AGM battery can now accumulate more acid than is available, and never spill a drop.
Advantages
All AGM batteries boast some significant performance enhancement over traditional flooded lead acid cells:
• AGM construction allows purer lead in the plates as each plate no longer needs to support its own weight based on the sandwich construction with AGM matting. Traditional cells must support their own weight in the bath of acid.
• un-spillable
• high specific power or power density, holding roughly 1.5x the AH capacity as flooded batteries based on purer lead]
• low internal resistance allowing them to be charged and discharged quite rapidly
• never requiring addition of water
• acid is encapsulated in the matting
• will operate well below 0°F or -18 °C.
• vibration resistant based on the sandwich construction.
Disadvantages
• Cost. AGM automobile batteries for example, are typically about twice the price of flooded-cell batteries in a given size.
• AGM batteries have up to a 10 year lifespan, but must be sized to discharge less deeply than the traditional flooded batteries. For an AGM battery, the depth of discharge for optimal performance is 50% but flooded batteries can be rated up to 80% depth of discharge.
• AGM batteries do not tolerate overcharging. Overcharging dissociates the water in the electrolyte, which is unable to be replaced, leading to premature failure.
Gel battery
A gel battery (also known as a "gel cell") is a VRLA battery with a gelified electrolyte; the sulfuric acid is mixed with silica fume, which makes the resulting mass gel-like and immobile. Unlike a flooded wet-cell lead-acid battery, these batteries do not need to be kept upright. Gel batteries reduce the electrolyte evaporation, spillage (and subsequent corrosion issues) common to the wet-cell battery, and boast greater resistance to extreme temperatures, shock, and vibration. Chemically they are the same as wet (non-sealed) batteries except that the antimony in the lead plates is replaced by calcium.
Applications
Many modern motorcycles on the market utilize AGM or factory-sealed AGM batteries for the combined benefits of reduced likelihood of acid spilling during accidents, and for packaging reasons (lighter, smaller battery to do the same job; the battery can be installed at an odd angle if needed for the design of the motorcycle).
The AGM battery is rapidly becoming the standard motorcycle battery!
Starting / Deep Cycle
Technology aside, the battery comes in two basic types and its important to know the difference.
Starting Batteries (found on vehicles) are designed with lots of thin plates to give a large surface area and thus can deliver a high starting current. However – they are not designed for deep discharges or regular cycling (discharge – charge). This is what often kills them – letting your battery get totally flat is a very bad thing indeed!
Deep Cycle Batteries are made with much thicker plates (more robust but less surface area) so they deliver less surge current BUT they can withstand many more discharge cycles. You will see these in UPS’s, golf carts, mobility scooters (well the good ones), fork lifts etc.
There are hybrids that are someplace between these extremes and are used in large boats, camper vans etc.
If your bike does not have electric start you are probably best served by a deep cycle unit but frankly good luck finding one small enough!
Technical Spec’s
Now we are going to get a bit technical so grab a coffee and hold on….These are general voltage ranges for six-cell lead-acid batteries (that’s 12v):
• Open-circuit at full charge: 12.6 V to 12.8 V (2.10-2.13V per cell)
• Open-circuit at full discharge: 11.8 V to 12.0 V
• Loaded at full discharge: 10.5 V.
• Continuous-preservation (float) charging: 13.4 V for gelled electrolyte; 13.5 V for AGM (absorbed glass mat) and 13.8 V for flooded cells
• Typical (daily) charging: 14.2 V to 14.5 V (depending on manufacturer's recommendation)
• Equalization charging (for flooded lead acids): 15 V for no more than 2 hours. Battery temperature must be monitored.
• Gassing threshold: 14.4 V
• After full charge, terminal voltage drops quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V.
•
PLEASE NOTE!!
1. All voltages are at 20 °C (68 °F), and must be adjusted -0.022V/°C for temperature changes.
2. Float voltage recommendations vary, according to the manufacturer's recommendation.
3. Precise float voltage (±0.05 V) is critical to longevity; insufficient voltage (causes sulfation) which is almost as detrimental as excessive voltage (causing corrosion and electrolyte loss)
Which Battery For My Bike?
Well this is all very nice isn’t it but enough of the BS which battery do you fit to your bike? Again – this is just my opinion so please don’t turn up at my door with burning torches, pitchforks and white sheets pushing your bike with a flat battery.
My feeling is;
Modern bike – electric start – AGM
Classic bike – electric start – AGM
Classic bike – kick start, zenner control – flooded cell
Classic bike – kick start, solid state - AGM
There are many old bikes running AGM’s with no problems BUT if you are still running a zenner or horror a switched load system then a flooded cell (trad wet cell) battery may be best. Typically you can be placing 14.8V charge at 100kph (no lights) charge at the battery and in my opinion the wet cells take that a little better. They WILL fail so replace them at the first sign but they are half the price!
Scooter boy
Only one issue Paul. Under real world circumstances some older charging systems will not keep a Calcium based battery charged. They just don’t have the output. I work in the motor trade and am having more and more problems with replacement Calcium battery’s (all that is available for some applications) coming back flat. This may well be a teething problem with new technology but it causes me issues on a fairly regular basis. Also Calcium battery's require a different charger for bench charging.
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aka: Benjamin Franklin Pierce
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BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!!
Hardcore Biker
Paul - very nicely written!
Flashjammin - you haven't said why your battery needs replacing - has the bike been sitting for 30 years or is it your daily ride and has just stopped suddenly?
Check point 3 here unless you are sure that the battery is the problem, or you might be in the same boat again sooner than you'd like
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...shooting-steps
Oh, BTW Japanese branded batteries are generally better quality than Chinese.
Forum whore
Yup - Thats one of the areas I need to look at. It often depends how efficient the rectifier is and (I suspect) sensitive the system is to the internal resistance / capacitance of the battery. I've had it suggested that you need to couple 2 of the AGM units in parallel when using an older charger. Worst of all, some so called 'tenders' struggle to sense when a smaller unit is fully charged.
I've done a lot of reading on non auto batteries, particularly rechargables and its interesting stuff. Charge rates vary enough to suggest you can totally root a modern sealed unit with the wrong charger.
End of the day - I'm fitting a Yuasa flooded cell at $54 rather than an AGM at $110. The reason being I have a good run from a std battery (5 years plus) and have the gear to maintain them so....
Scooter boy
Li-poly technology is interesting,if a little scary!
For now, for my application i am also staying with Led Acid. I would suggest anyone looking to 'upgrade' on an older bike spend some time checking there charging system.
Back on track though. If your certain the fault lies with the battery check the manufacturers spec and buy a quality brand from a respectable supplier. Avoid factory seconds (there is a reason they are seconds). Personally i have had no problems with Yuasa.
Hardcore Biker
The core of the issue is that as soon as you change the chemistry of the battery, you need to change the charging scheme. No 2 battery types have the same charging profiles, but you get away with a bit if they are close enough.
Automotive systems are designed for lead acid batteries, there are workarounds and compromises you can make to use other types but you need to have a clear goal in mind - e.g. weight savings for the knife edge of racing where grams count, or reserve capacity if you are trekking across the desert or whatever.
Forum whore
Check the thread on Shorai batteries. I hope to be able to get more in stock end Feb, but if you want one I can ask if I can get in a couple more "evaluation" batteries... I've got one here I was going to take to Paeroa on 20th to show everyone. Death_Inc has the other one in Draco's R6 for testing...Hi everyone,
I'm wanting to get a general opinion on what type of battery is good/bad and which one people would recommend is the best.
I need to buy a new battery, my current one is pretty shot and no longer holds a charge hence the bike wont run
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
<<----- My dream bike.
Don't over think it, Motobatt is more than sufficient. I've bought two and they're fine. SHit a Besco one from Repco will will probably be sweet really.
If it costs you over $120, and that's being generous, you are paying more than you should.
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jamside down.
A cat glued to some jam toast will hover in quantum indecision
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat
Fix a computer and it'll break tomorrow.
Teach its owner to fix it and it'll break in some way you've never seen before.
Forum whore
Well of course, there is that... As long as the charging and electrical system is in good shape simply replacing with a new one will work fine. However where the Shorai ones do win is in battery life which is claimed up to 4x standard, (and in weight and starting capacity), so if you add up the purchase costs of 3 - 4 standard batteries they start looking good value for money.
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
<<----- My dream bike.
Meh, look at his bike, I doubt he'll own it in a years time, so why waste a shite load of money on an expensive battery?
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jamside down.
A cat glued to some jam toast will hover in quantum indecision
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat
Fix a computer and it'll break tomorrow.
Teach its owner to fix it and it'll break in some way you've never seen before.
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