F1GP

[Coldkiwi]

Michelin could pack up their toys in a huff but it'd be no real loss to the racing as they've been a single tyre series before haven't they? (certainly many other open wheel classes are).
personally I think this must be the most single high profile muck up in the entire History of the Company! I dare say Michelin will have fired more than a few employees over that mess

[TwoSeven]

Barrechello led after the first pitstops until Shuey nearly took him out leaving the pits. There was nothing obediant about it.
Near the end they were down to 1m 12's which was real race pace.
It was farcical but not because of anything Ferrrari did,

Except the fact that the commentators recorded the voice comms where barrechello was told to stop racing after the 2nd pit. Dont think ferrari wanted anyone to hear that.

[TwoSeven]

Michelin could pack up their toys in a huff but it'd be no real loss to the racing as they've been a single tyre series before haven't they? (certainly many other open wheel classes are).
personally I think this must be the most single high profile muck up in the entire History of the Company! I dare say Michelin will have fired more than a few employees over that mess

I dont think so, it was never a michelin problem, quite simply the FIA prevents testing at circuits during the near (other than the nominated one and official tests), and the tires are made up to 12 months before.

The only way michlen was going to find out there was a tire problem was by examining them on friday - which they did.

Not their problem that the race director and FIA officials wouldnt allow a track layout change on the friday when everyone was told of the problem.

Personally I think that adds more momentum to the breakaway series - which to be honest, I would support. Its not that hasnt happened before - american indycar was also a spinoff from F1 - they froze the rules at the time and spun off the series because rising costs meant teams couldnt compete.

[Motu]

I think it was a single tyre supplier because Bridgestone were the only ones in it after Goodyear pulled out.It was obvious Bridgestone were putting more effort into tyres for Ferrari than the other teams,that's why there was the big exodus to Michelin when they came on board,now Ferrari are practicaly the only Bridgestone team,the other 2 teams are practicaly no use for data purposes....this is why Ferrari have been so far behind this year.Trouble is when Michelin drop the ball it effects so many teams...if the roles were reversed it would only really be Ferrari that would suffer....then any action from the FIA would see accusations of Ferrari favoritism.This is a track they can't test on...and then a surface change from the 4 previous years,they got it wrong...maybe,no one really knows,they just had say that the tyres couldn't be trusted.

[Brian d marge]

After an aborted start all the Factory riders and few non factory riders refused to race as they claimed the track to dangerous in the wet and Pierfrancesco Chili won with only 5 finishers, intersting that a lot of the bikes were on Michelin there as well

I remember that, in fact I have te tape somewhere ....His name was Sir Mudd for a long time after that ,,,then he appeared in superbikes ,,,
A lot of gp riders were well pissed with him over that ...

The was one privateeer who on the restart went out on slicks ,,,,( for the start money) ,,,first corner ,,,,plop ..

Stephen
BTW
from what I read ..they havent been able to test at Us of A So fridays incident was a surprise, they couldnt reproduce the problem and said to the teams they couldnt garrantee safety ,,,
I hold the Mr Ecclestone responsible ,,,( for everything ,,global warming , the westbank everything )
I mean a track change wouldnt have been a problem, ,,As the thems the rules attitude ...made the fans who paid A LOT of money ( yer arse ecclestone ) get short changed ,,and I bet they didnt get there money back either ,,,,,
You paid to watch star wars ..but we only have lassie go home ,,,so we are playing that instead .....
yeah right

[Kickaha]

I dont think so, it was never a michelin problem, quite simply the FIA prevents testing at circuits during the near (other than the nominated one and official tests), and the tires are made up to 12 months before.

The only way michlen was going to find out there was a tire problem was by examining them on friday - which they did.

Not their problem that the race director and FIA officials wouldnt allow a track layout change on the friday when everyone was told of the problem.
.

It was a Michelin problem,put quite simply they bought a tyre to the track that wasn't up to the job

The FIA gave three different options to allow them to race and the Michelin shod teams declined to go with any of them

[NC]

I thought that was so funny!

All those pissed off bogans chucking cans on the track

[That Guy]

I dont think so, it was never a michelin problem, quite simply the FIA prevents testing at circuits during the near (other than the nominated one and official tests), and the tires are made up to 12 months before.

The only way michlen was going to find out there was a tire problem was by examining them on friday - which they did.

Not their problem that the race director and FIA officials wouldnt allow a track layout change on the friday when everyone was told of the problem.

.

Apart from the fact they have been to Indy before and knew damn well there was banking on the circuit, and they knew they had to consider this into their tyre design. Therefore it was a Michelin problem, and mistake, that furthermore Bridgestone did not make.

It is also the fault of the teams - in a multi-million dollar agreement like they have; you ensure your suppliers have contingencies in place in case of disasters like they had. You'd make sure that if your supplier was going to bring a new tyre design to a track not yet tested, that they have some old proven designs availble to use if the new unproven design failed. You would make sure your multi-million dollar investment (ie everything apart from the tyres) was protected from idiotic planning by a key supplier, by way of contractual agreements. Wouldn't you.

Poor, poor planning. Shame on you Michelin and shame on you respective team's management.

[Brian d marge]

Yup
Still blaming everything on Ecclestone..the plight of the pigmys ,,,Hubble telescopes battery problems ...

Its seems to me that after reading the FIA statement and the testing alowances, It all ecclestones fault ,,

No ,,,They can test at any of the European tracks if the pay costs , there is a six week summer testing ban and all that

But it must be said that you run what you brung ...and at the end of the day the driver with the best package and luck will win.

Though The problem as I see it is there was no testing in USA ...and especially with a high banked track ...THATS a no brainer ,...The only track like this and they cant test ( the rulz says European tracks) ...

So its not Michelins fault all they could do is have a stab in the dark ,,,,as to tyre compound ,,, and its not FIA ( at this point ) as they said you run what you brung and we cant change the track as We cant garrentee safety ..
Its the fault of the Dick who allowed the usa Race to go ahead without the teams being allowed to test ....( correct me if I am wrong but I read European tracks only )

Me...Knowing my tyres werent up to It I would have raced and slowed for the turn ( you can block) and accepted the result
You get nought for not crossing that finish line .... ( I have made that decision so know how it feels ...1 hour to go on a enduro with a completely shagged tyre Split and no valve ,,,well I ran it on the rims for an hour ...and was second ! )

At the end of the day...there were the fans who as I said paid big money to see F1 and got screwed while ecclestone laughs all the way to the leeds ( bank)
As anyone who has been to an F1 will know those tickets aint cheap ....

to u ecclestone

Stephen

[Lou Girardin]

Except the fact that the commentators recorded the voice comms where barrechello was told to stop racing after the 2nd pit. Dont think ferrari wanted anyone to hear that.

Ferrari allowed the pit/car conversations to be broadcast for the first time. Advising a driver to maintain position is not the same as team orders, just commonsense to avoid them taking each other out.

[TwoSeven]

It was a Michelin problem,put quite simply they bought a tyre to the track that wasn't up to the job

The FIA gave three different options to allow them to race and the Michelin shod teams declined to go with any of them

They offered to bring new tires out. But as I said, the tires are made 12 months in advance and the teams had not tested with the new tires - so their cars would have been even more unsafe (and the same problem with the weak sidewall loading was found).

I dont know what FIA options your talking about. The FIA are claiming in their press release that Michelin brought the wrong tires to the race. But anyone who knows anything about the race will note that the fault was found in the tires as a result of xraying them after ralph shoemakers crash.

The FIA's proposal was that the Michelin teams basically ran their cars slower than the bridgestone teams and if they tried to go fast, the FIA would penalise the drivers. I dont think thats fair for all.

Basically the FIA are bullshitting everyone.

Further to events at the 2005 United States Grand Prix, representatives of the seven Michelin teams have been summoned to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council to be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29, 2005.

We'll find out then what the result will be.

[Kickaha]

Tyres made twelve months in advance? I doubt that very much as if you have everything there a tyre can be built in hours and there'd be no point in having them sitting around that long

Michelin said they could fly a different type of tyre out for the race but they still couldn't state with any certainty they would be safe


As for the three options have a look here I cant be bothered wading through it all to find it again
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70463

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press...190605-02.html

although there's a few pages to get through to find the right bits

And another that relates to itl
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70519

[gav]

After an aborted start all the Factory riders and few non factory riders refused to race as they claimed the track to dangerous in the wet and Pierfrancesco Chili won with only 5 finishers, intersting that a lot of the bikes were on Michelin there as well

Yip, Chilli was racing for Italian Roberto Gallinas HB Honda team, his team mate that weekend was Flyin' Fred Merkel, in one of his few GP starts. Poor Chilli was caught between a rock and a hard place, Merkels bike shit itself and he misased the race, but yeah Chillis 500 career was abit down hill after that, two years later he was back on a 250 before ending up continuing his career in World Superbike. As for tyres being made 12 months in advance The FIA actually had an oval track lined up for a tyre test session in Europe,but only Bridgestone turned up , also Bridgestone had the advantage of Firestones input after running the Indy 500. The track had apparently been relaid prior to the start of the season and was more abrasive than in the past, which probably caught Michelin out.

[TwoSeven]

Tyres made twelve months in advance? I doubt that very much as if you have everything there a tyre can be built in hours and there'd be no point in having them sitting around that long

It takes up to 12 hours to make a single tire (although they are made on a production line). They have to make 4 tires per car + 4 spare on race day * 4 compounds (soft, hard, inter and wet) * 3 days * 14 cars. That works out at about 1300 odd tires (although they will only fly out half that number).

There are 15 race weekends this year, meaning they have to make potentially nearly 20,000 tires per year (again they'll only make half that number or slightly less than half). Race season starts in feb, so including testing, tire development, car development and all the other things they need to do, its nearly 12 months before that tire work is started.

Each circuit requires a different tread compound, so they cant just make a huge batch, they have to change the process for each batch of tires. Once a batch is made a sample is sent to the teams, who then test with them and have to change the car depending on the tire - it affects grip, drive and basic handling. On the bigger teams, they will have tires specifically made for the drivers - which makes it even harder to change.

As it says in the press release, michelin discovered that the sidewall of the tires couldnt take the high lateral speed, neither could the backup tire (the hard compound). You cant just go back and make 400 odd completely new tires (about 120 just for race day) at a snap of a finger. Whats worse is the tires cant be changed when they wear, like they used to - they have to last the whole race which weakens the tire even more.

Neither can you tell the drivers to put on untested tires - they cars just wouldnt work with them, they'd be crashing all over the place due to busted suspension and the like.

The only options they have are to say, dont use the tires, or change the circuit so there is no extreme lateral sideforce.

And as I pointed out in the FIA press release, they FIA is going after the teams, not michelin.

[Brian d marge]

Production of tyres can/does staart in advance of 12 months depending on the series , ( its not just F1 they make tyres for) ..They do have the capacity for sort lead times depending on the series But ,,I suspect friday was a bit to short, as for 20 000 tyres , more 50 000 tyres For JUST f1 ......
I know thas thet lead time for aussie v8 s , but not for F1 I assume it would be more dynamic

Those who design for a living , will understand lead times ... IF I get the design right first time ( NOT) and the drawings are good ( NOT) and the jobbing engineer ( F1 Hamilton TOP BLOKE ) then I am looking at a min of 1 1/2 months min , usually its three or 4 and I dont have to start and stop a production line !!!
In fact I have just finished a project it was drawn on the 17th May( just checked ) and was Installed yesterday with testing this weekend ( seems ok ) that was a VERY simple flywheel .....

Nope Its all ecclestone fault and his little gremlin mosely .., From what I understand the track had been resurfaced, there was NO infomation about the track ( ie no testing or even info from other forms of M/sport) , So Michelin who tyres are a broad spectrum tyre , couldnt make an informed choice
Fim saying you should run what u brung ,,and if its crap tough ,,,

Me I blame FIM for not allowing testing AFTER the reseal OR allowing the race to go ahead at that circuit knowing there had been a surface change ,,,
As for its been there since 1909 ,,it WAS clay brick in 1909 Now its Shell mix ,,,,
One thing that DIDNT happen was all those fan who paid money DIDNT get their money refunded for only seeing 1/2 the movie ..( ie you paid to see a race between the top 15 teams and you saw one ferrari and mrs Jones in a robin reliant!!!

As a Fan of race ,,,eeer anything ... I want to see Fangio working the wheel.... Sideways ..... not over paid poofs , bring in control tires and brakes ... and set budgets ,,,hang on we could call it A1 ,,,
Im going to be rich , yes what a good idea ,,, luckly no one has thought of it yet

Or better yet who cares ,,,lets watch Townley much more fun ,,,and much better racing to

Stephen