The world's revolting

[puddytat]

Are you fucking kidding me? How much weed did you smoke before you thought of that ???

If there was no God to punish bad people and reward good people, where is the incentive for most people to be good??? If people did not believe that good people go to heaven and bad people burn in hell forever - i.e. if most peole beleived dead is dead ... then we'd have one hell of a BAD party ...

Get real ... Most people need a judgemental boogie man in the sky writing in his big book and handing out punishment just like Daddy did !!!!

Well I havnt had a bong or a cookie for weeks
Considering that, I'd quesstimate that the majority of people on this orb would class themselves to be of one religious bent or another then Id like to postulate that that is why the party aint going to well....
Either Im misunderstanding you or you me, but what Im saying is that if people need something "otherworldly" to blame instead of human selfishness & bigotry or Mother Nature then they are seeking solace in thier own wee illusion. If people need some other entity or incentive to be good then no wonder were in the shit. Why not just trying to be & do good, for no other reason than its the right thing to do?.What comes around goes around man. I dont need a GOD of any discription to tell me how to live my life & most definitely dont need a Priest or a Witch Doctor whose high on incense or herb .
Personally, I think the idea of Heaven is the ultimate cop out,because as long as you repent your sins on the Sabbath,the Cross or the confessional or while being being stoned ,you'll get to heaven....leaving behind the Havoc your've created while on Earth.

[Edbear]

Well I havnt had a bong or a cookie for weeks
Considering that, I'd quesstimate that the majority of people on this orb would class themselves to be of one religious bent or another then Id like to postulate that that is why the party aint going to well....
Either Im misunderstanding you or you me, but what Im saying is that if people need something "otherworldly" to blame instead of human selfishness & bigotry or Mother Nature then they are seeking solace in thier own wee illusion. If people need some other entity or incentive to be good then no wonder were in the shit. Why not just trying to be & do good, for no other reason than its the right thing to do?.What comes around goes around man. I dont need a GOD of any discription to tell me how to live my life & most definitely dont need a Priest or a Witch Doctor whose high on incense or herb .
Personally, I think the idea of Heaven is the ultimate cop out,because as long as you repent your sins on the Sabbath,the Cross or the confessional or while being being stoned ,you'll get to heaven....leaving behind the Havoc your've created while on Earth.

LOL!!! Well said! Human nature, (and KB is a very real example), is to balk at "rules" and to prefer to do things ones own way. However, when it turns to custard as it usually does, they also blame other than themselves for it and expect TPTB to pick them up and dust them off and "fix it".

Unrealistically, people think that other people who are just like them, can get into Govt. and fix the problems of society and provide everything we need without it costing us our "rights", our "freedom" and our money. I've said before, imagine a cross-section of KB running the country...?

People evade the law, evade tax, evade providing for their families and expect the Govt. will take care of them with this bottomless pit of money magicked out of nowhere and by waving its magic wand over the "baddies".

The problem with the Bible is the same as with any instruction manual, it only works if people read it and do what it says or the Warranty is null and void and you reap what you sow. Most of what it does say is simple common sense anyway! Trouble with rules and regulations is they require self-discipline, self-control and self-denial for the long term and common good. That really rankles with many if not most people and that's the history of Mankind. Now we face not just increasing unrest, but the destruction of the environment to the point that science is giving us only a few more generations, or even one before we become extinct.

Watch the Middle East, Africa and China now as things unfold.

[george formby]

LOL!!! Well said! Human nature, (and KB is a very real example), is to balk at "rules" and to prefer to do things ones own way. However, when it turns to custard as it usually does, they also blame other than themselves for it and expect TPTB to pick them up and dust them off and "fix it".



Watch the Middle East, Africa and China now as things unfold.

The weight of religion & fringe fundamentalism is increasing because of the failure's being compounded by politicians & economists. Whichever good book you prefer offers advice, solace & community. Without a long view & the sacrifices required to safe guard resources, knowledge & environment we are poked.

Add India v Pakistan, the Koreas & the Stans to your list

[Edbear]

The weight of religion & fringe fundamentalism is increasing because of the failure's being compounded by politicians & economists. Whichever good book you prefer offers advice, solace & community. Without a long view & the sacrifices required to safe guard resources, knowledge & environment we are poked.

Add India v Pakistan, the Koreas & the Stans to your list

You're not wrong. We live in the "here and now" and in a "throw-away society" and people are throwing away society itself as they withdraw into themselves due to the worsening conditions around them.

Even Tonga and Fiji are arguing at the moment over territory. Seems no-one can find any common ground anymore. Britain is imploding into a mess of racism, Christian v. Moslem and Homosexuals oppressing heterosexuals. "Christianity" is being legislated against as secularism takes over.

[mashman]

Why not just trying to be & do good, for no other reason than its the right thing to do?

because some people just don't seem to be able to grasp that simple concept... in fact they lose it along the way as money becomes more of a driver eh.

imagine a cross-section of KB running the country...?

I love the idea and think it would have a much more positive outcome for society than any political parties that have given it a crack... after all, look where society is today ... at least they'd get things done without pandering to the soft cocks , not saying they wouldn't take them into consideration, but there is a need for a HTFU attitude these days.

[puddytat]

Fascinating times we live in me thinks...
In regards to Egypt I think that this "Peoples Revolution "is an amazing thing to have seen....But I feel that it went off before anyone really had an alternative plan.
So the Army now controls the country , a military coup by proxy you could say, until & again I say UNTIL, they deem it appropriate to grant elections.....
Meanwhile the only organised group in the country is the Islamists,supported by other Islamist states like Iran who is saying that "the people have spoken" when their own President made damn sure that he remaind in control when people protested against the regime last year
I hope they can get it together, the majority of people there, who are no doubt moderates & would like to get more than $2.50 a day.
But I fear that the coming together of the people will split into factions.
Power corrupts.
In Africa it'll go Tribal.

Just heard on NatRad that this years Temp increase in N.Z is the equivalent to the country moving 7-10 degrees Nth in latitude...

[Banditbandit]

Well I havnt had a bong or a cookie for weeks
Considering that, I'd quesstimate that the majority of people on this orb would class themselves to be of one religious bent or another then Id like to postulate that that is why the party aint going to well....
Either Im misunderstanding you or you me, but what Im saying is that if people need something "otherworldly" to blame instead of human selfishness & bigotry or Mother Nature then they are seeking solace in thier own wee illusion. If people need some other entity or incentive to be good then no wonder were in the shit. Why not just trying to be & do good, for no other reason than its the right thing to do?.What comes around goes around man. I dont need a GOD of any discription to tell me how to live my life & most definitely dont need a Priest or a Witch Doctor whose high on incense or herb .
Personally, I think the idea of Heaven is the ultimate cop out,because as long as you repent your sins on the Sabbath,the Cross or the confessional or while being being stoned ,you'll get to heaven....leaving behind the Havoc your've created while on Earth.

OK let's take out my trolling .. here's what Im saying ...

1 Human beings are largely psycologically dependent on some form of "higher power" to set the rules for their behaviour

2 Religion has set of rules to govern behaviour, with an attendent reward/punishment system to make sure the rules are followed - i.e. if you are good, when you die you are rewarded, if you are bad, when you die you are punished. (The religious imperative) Even Buddhism does this, so don't chuck Matreya at me ...

Our laws are still largely based around the Ten Commandments, even though we are a secular state.

3 If you remove the Religious Imperative, what motivation is there for people to be good? If, when you are dead you are dead, why not have a fun time here and do what you want, even if it is very very nasty - Like Jeffrey Dharma or Albert Fish ... there will be no consequences after death.

Most people are not altruistic ... they only behave in altruistic ways because they believe they will be rewarded in the next life ..

[george formby]

The army STILL controls the country.

The Islamic organisation which is being discussed is moderate & do not believe that religion & politics should mix.
I see strings being pulled behind the scenes of this organisation & no doubt quite a bit of money heading their way & to certain individuals in the army.

The best hope for the country would be a peaceful revolution in the army & police force too, from the ground up.

IMHO but I'm no Robert Fisk.

[Edbear]

OK let's take out my trolling .. here's what Im saying ...

1 Human beings are largely psycologically dependent on some form of "higher power" to set the rules for their behaviour

2 Religion has set of rules to govern behaviour, with an attendent reward/punishment system to make sure the rules are followed - i.e. if you are good, when you die you are rewarded, if you are bad, when you die you are punished. (The religious imperative) Even Buddhism does this, so don't chuck Matreya at me ...

Our laws are still largely based around the Ten Commandments, even though we are a secular state.

3 If you remove the Religious Imperative, what motivation is there for people to be good? If, when you are dead you are dead, why not have a fun time here and do what you want, even if it is very very nasty - Like Jeffrey Dharma or Albert Fish ... there will be no consequences after death.

Most people are not altruistic ... they only behave in altruistic ways because they believe they will be rewarded in the next life ..

1/ I agree in that science also says human beings are essentially spiritual, being the only intelligent creature with a sense of the divine or superior intelligence/being/God and as General Montgomery observed, despite 60% signing up as Atheist, "There were no atheists in the front trenches."

2/ Religions of all sides and societies in general including secular have a set of rules with reward or punishment.

3/ I have a wee bit more faith in human nature in that I believe most people are by nature, altruistic with a sense of justice inherent in Man and in harmony with the Bible which says that, "When people of the nations who do not have Law, do by nature the things of the Law, they demonstrate they have the matter of the Law written in their hearts." So by nature, Man is created basically just and with the capacity for love and to care for his fellow man. Scriptural Law, is basically common sense and revolves around caring for each other, the animals and the environment, things which we should by nature agree with.

4/ There are consequences for our actions both good and bad, whether immediate or delayed, and when you stop and think about it, Death is not attractive regardless what happens after that. We are inherently designed to live and love life and the thought we may simply go away forever, never to be seen or heard again, just rot back to the ground, is anathema to most.

[puddytat]

3 If you remove the Religious Imperative, what motivation is there for people to be good? If, when you are dead you are dead, why not have a fun time here and do what you want, even if it is very very nasty - Like Jeffrey Dharma or Albert Fish ... there will be no consequences after death.

..

Everything else I agree with...but being good is simply morals & ethics & doesnt need religion to enforce it.Look at the laws people disregard, do you think they give a shit about Religion?.They know the differance between being good & bad & laws dont stop them so why would Religion. Dont get me wrong Im not trying to bag Religion, I do see the good in it , but I still see it far too often being used for purposes that have nothing to do with God & or the common good.
And as for consequences as far as im concerned its the legacy that people leave behind that is what they will be rembered for & by, the people that are still on this mortal coil.
As Ed said, & its what I also believe in, is the likes of the 10 commandments....a set of moral & ethical guidelines which funnily enough the Religions that are causing half the drama all agree on And which youre common heathen can also grasp.

[george formby]

I think that apart from our primitive nature to nurture we have fairly negative motivations in a "we are good, really" sense, basically, whatever it takes to get ahead & stay ahead. It's only because of the strong who gave their people stability & raw materials through victory that we ended up with religion, politics, philosophy etc in the first place.

Broadly speaking all the great civilizations started off as warring tribes, where united by strong, merciless leaders & through conquest & domination developed the aspects of culture we have now.

That's why the likes of the Khmer Rouge & Congolese armies use child soldiers, they have no inbuilt sense of morality, right or wrong. Unaffected by culture.
We used to knock 7 bells out of each other into our early twenties, hopefully be able to retire for a few years & share our wisdom on tactics & techniques then off to wherever we believed our next life was.

I don't think we have changed as homo sapiens, but we have added to the ways we can control & get ahead with many new labels for our actions.

I also think that the cornerstones of our societies, religion, law, political debate etc came about to curb & control our instincts because they are bad for the business of those people who are getting ahead in/running our world, but, over all they are good for everybody too, we live longer.

I'm a fully fledged cynic, soz.

[oneofsix]

there is hunters, there is gathers, there is farmers and there is soldiers and finally manipulating bastards. I think human kind has always had a mixture of types.
Very few don't have a moral compass but some are more able than others to ignore it or rationalise it to fit their needs.
Child armies are because children are easy to bully and to get to submit to authority, part of innate their programming. Children do have a moral compass but when the authority figure says to go against it they are more likely to obey.
The last few post have all had good points

[Edbear]

there is hunters, there is gathers, there is farmers and there is soldiers and finally manipulating bastards. I think human kind has always had a mixture of types.
Very few don't have a moral compass but some are more able than others to ignore it or rationalise it to fit their needs.
Child armies are because children are easy to bully and to get to submit to authority, part of innate their programming. Children do have a moral compass but when the authority figure says to go against it they are more likely to obey.
The last few post have all had good points

Exactly! When you see what the adults do to these children in order to get them to aquiesce it is horrifying and pure evil. They rape the girls, and sometimes the boys, they force them to kill their own family members, they are mutilated and beaten until the children are so demoralised or afraid, that they will do anything they are told to do.

Children especially, have a keen sense of justice and fairness which needs to be rewarded, encouraged, supported, and guided into adulthood with parental backing and especially parental example. Children learn what they see and hear, not what they are told.

[george formby]

Exactly! When you see what the adults do to these children in order to get them to aquiesce it is horrifying and pure evil. They rape the girls, and sometimes the boys, they force them to kill their own family members, they are mutilated and beaten until the children are so demoralised or afraid, that they will do anything they are told to do.

Children especially, have a keen sense of justice and fairness which needs to be rewarded, encouraged, supported, and guided into adulthood with parental backing and especially parental example. Children learn what they see and hear, not what they are told.

I do not really want to dwell on this because i find it as abhorrent as you but the thing is with the poor kids the treatment becomes normal & unquestionable in their eyes so they continue to treat others the same way making them very effective soldiers. Adults can be bullied & tortured into behaving a similar way but it would become normal for only a very few. It takes a very screwed up person to torture, kill & rape without feeling. Kids can do it better than adults, they tend to live in the moment & do not suffer remorse.
The aid agency's who come to the help of these orphans face a difficult task in re-educating them but it says a lot about child adaptability that they can.

Sorry, time to get back on topic

[avgas]

You all know the rules.
Religious Ravings go in the religious ravings thread.

So I will start to derail this thread until the thread is moved, I am banned or the topic steps off its downward spiral

So here is a silly hat