Morality?

[Lou Girardin]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.

[Odin]

........by the thousands of Americans

...and soldiers from just a few other nations

[sels1]

Its all about self interest and saving face, grasshopper
These guys are worse than Bush

[placidfemme]

Its all about self interest and saving face, grasshopper
These guys are worse than Bush

I'm not too sure about that... Bush is 1.65% worse

[Coldkiwi]

I don't know if its a funny definition of morality thats made them say that or whether its their age old culture of not wanting to loose face. Maybe a bit of both.

Its an interesting issue though but I've yet to see any evidence presented by Japan on what scientific research reports they are producing through the killing of 400 whales a year.. and what sort of wonderful reports they might produce if they killed twice as many? I know 'scientific purposes' are widely regarded as a front for the whale meat industry but is there any published science to help support the assertion that its not just for food?

[spudchucka]

...and soldiers from just a few other nations

Too right but you can't underestimate the importance of the USA's contribution. I don't think the Normandy invasions would have ever succeeded without the yanks input. Pretty much the same goes for the war in the pacific.

[Marmoot]

Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.

The soldiers do not start the war. And in war, heroes always come out from both sides.

But I agree, whitewash revisionist culture is really bad.

[TwoSeven]

Its never a good idea to question another countries moralities on the principle that they have a different set of values and cultural background from which they draw them from.

Perhaps you could do it to likeminded countries but even thats dangerous.

Best way to understand another culture is to go there and live amongst the natives

[Indiana_Jones]

Yeah, they don't like to loose face.

They started the war because they didn't want to lose face. The US stopped trading with them (over the China-Japan war, where Japan invaded China) and they got most of their oil from them. So not to bow down, they moved into the Pacific (taking out the US threat first) and then into French, Dutch and British colonial assets, to gain reasources (though most senoir military officals in Japan knew they wouldn't be able to defeat the US, some hoped to sue for peace)

Well that's how I see it, or read and been taught (well self taught, I could never write eassy's at school, so I didn't bother taking history, though I enjoy it)

And has anyone seen them catch sharks, chop off the fins (for shark fin soup) and chuck the sharks back in the water?

-Indy

[crazylittleshit]

The Japanese Government has a strange idea of morality. How else can they claim a "moral victory" from their defeat at the IWC.
It seems that they have made the world aware of the "benefits" of their "research" into whales.
Still, it shouldn't be surprising given their revisionist views of the war they started in 1941.
Their Prime Minister visited Okinawa for the first time since 1945 and gave tribute to the sacrifice the victims made to ensure world peace, clearly including the Japanese dead. This was a war their military started, the sacrifice was actually made by the thousands of Americans and millions of civilians that the Japanese killed.
As I said, a strange idea of morality.

"BUSH"
lets nuke them
I just think we should start cutting them up

[Odin]

Too right but you can't underestimate the importance of the USA's contribution. I don't think the Normandy invasions would have ever succeeded without the yanks input. Pretty much the same goes for the war in the pacific.

Agreed but still.... they were not alone, and if you look at the benefit they got out of WW2 they were really the only winners. So the we did you a favor thing and all that...

[kerryg]

Its never a good idea to question another countries moralities on the principle that they have a different set of values and cultural background from which they draw them from.

Perhaps you could do it to likeminded countries but even thats dangerous.

Best way to understand another culture is to go there and live amongst the natives

There are some KB members who live and work/study/whatever in Japan and it would be interesting to hear from them about this.

Isn't it a possibility that there's a bit of hysterical over-reaction going on with this whaling issue, created by the anti-whaling lobby, which may (??)not be supported by the facts. Do we really know with certainty that taking 400 or 900 minke whales represents an kind of threat to anything except our sensibilities (well..and to those particular minke whales)? It's abhorrent to me, I admit, and beats me why anyone would want to eat a whale when they could get as much beef, chicken etc as they want and God knows Japan has the affluence to buy whatever food it needs and more without taking whales...but why are we making a distinction between whales and other creatures that we all happily eat? Supposing that the taking of minke whales threatens them with extinction (I'm not sure that that is correct anyway, but for the sake of argument) harvesting to near-extinction isn't even the the issue, is it? Don't see anyone taking up arms over the near-extinction of the orange roughy....I saw something in the paper about sharks being (at least potentially) endangered as the Chinese economy is growing and demand for sharks fin soup is growing with it, but sharks don't seem to have the same emotional pull of whales (funny that.....never have enjoyed swimmimg in the sea since seeing JAWS).

I have had a bit to do with the Japanese over the years and the people I've talked to REALLY couldn't understand why we put whales in a kind of sacred category. "Cows of the sea" I think one Japanese described them to me... One Japanese guy said to me "yet you Westerners will eat RABBIT!!!". (They figure it's like eating a panda or a koala). Yeah, I know there's a difference between a whale and a rabbit or cow, but there is a cultural gap between us over the status of whales. Maybe we need to ask ourselves what our objections are really based on...pehaps?
Also the Japanese are very insular/xenophobic and can't feed themselves from their limited agricultural land so they find it bit rich coming from us, huge nett food exporters, that they shouldn't harvest one of their traditional food sources. It seems high-handed.

And one more thing just for the hell of it: traditionally Japanese were not meat eaters and the custom of eating beef, chicken, pork and other farmed animals is something quite new to them. They still have a slightly Brahmin-like distaste for the idea of meat (the meat industry is the province of a kind of Japanese untouchable class, just like in India) and see it as quite hypocritical coming from us meat-chewing animal-mass-slaughtering rabbit-munching lamb-gnawing people that we should mind their taking a few (alright a few hundred) whales.


Just running it up the flag-pole to see who'll salute it............

[Lou Girardin]

Agreed but still.... they were not alone, and if you look at the benefit they got out of WW2 they were really the only winners. So the we did you a favor thing and all that...

Actually Germany was a winner economically after the war under the Marshall plan to rebuild the country and Japan did very well under McArthur. That's why they became so strong, so quickly. Plus the fact that they didn't have to pour billions into armed forces during the start of the cold war.

But to my knowledge, only American troops out of the allies fought on Okinawa.

[Indiana_Jones]

I don't have a problem with killing whales. I don't think they should be cut up when they're still alive as I have seen sometimes. If you kill it then cut it up, then I have no issue. But greenies go "oh but the whale feels pain".....You don't fucking say? .

Why don't they tell that to lion ripping the zebra apart when it's still alive?

But I don't think we should be whaling, not at the moment at least. They have been hunted like bufflo in the past. Then again killing a whale isn't as easy as it seems (lol well for sure back in the day).
Japan say they want to return to restricted whaling, my pale British arse they would "restrict" it, they'll rape it until there is nothing left.

-Indy

[SPman]

And as for restricted to Minke and a few minor species??? Friends of ny son where involved in the Greenpeace whale meat hunt in Japan a couple of years ago. - They identified, Fin, Sei, Bowhead and Blue whale meat for sale, as well as Minke. and Right whale. So they are already getting whatever they see out there.

It wouldnt be so bad if they cut the bullshit and just said they wfere actively whaling.
But for scientific purposes?
Torpedo a couple of fucking Factory ships - Fuck em!