"Gee, I'm dumb"

[Banditbandit]

Is that with or without a H?

And the answer has never been no, its been need more money.

Yeah .. because in the past when we said NO you shot at us (OK ... swap the pronouns - this is no personal attack or nor a suggestion that the people alive today did that)

[Banditbandit]

Why not teach the maori English?



If you did, instead of resisting like a truculent child, you might find the maori getting on a bit better.

On who's terms would we be "getting on a bit better" and at what cost?

200 years of trying to teach us your ways has seen a massive rise in Māori crime rates, poor educational outcomes, sickness, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence ... etc

If these are the results of the destruction of our culture and the forced adoption of your culture, don't you think it is time to find a better answer - for all of us ????

[Banditbandit]

You don't have to do it the European way, NB: macrons are most associate with European languages like French

Of course - we are making the best use of the trools of the modern world.

If you don't do it the "European way" then don't complain when you don't make the standards or have the life style and remember it was your choice so don't blame those that chose the European way.

I didn't say the "European Way" .. because I don't mean it in the sense of the racial types, nor in the country. Note that I said "European-derived cultures" ..

Computers still don't have macrons as standard so you are still screwed at getting consistency of use and therefore IMHO doomed to failure.
BTW computers are the USA way in case you were wondering, like most of the other standards of the modern world. The European way was so last century.

Yes ... and the USA has a European-derived culture ...

[Dave Lobster]

And who said we wanted to do that? Only the Pākehā ...

I don't think the white people are forcing the treaty claims or the grabbing hands.

200 years of trying to teach us your ways has seen a massive rise in Māori crime rates, poor educational outcomes, sickness, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence ... etc

You're blaming the white people for the maori not doing well at school and drug/alcohol abuse?? Seriously??
The domestic violence is merely a part of the warrior gene.. surely? Aren't maori/pacific people proud of that any more? From what you see in the courts, I thought it was a thriving part of the culture, rather than something to be ashamed of.

If these are the results of the destruction of our culture and the forced adoption of your culture, don't you think it is time to find a better answer - for all of us ????

No. It's time that the minority of maori/pacific people that are intent on being criminals/separatists/etc. pulled their finger out of their ass, grew up a bit and got a job. It IS a minority. Most maori (well.. part maori, let's face it) are normal people with jobs/families/hobbies. The minority would probably find they enjoy their life a bit more if they didn't spend so much of it bleating about how hard done by they are.

[oneofsix]

On who's terms would we be "getting on a bit better" and at what cost?

200 years of trying to teach us your ways has seen a massive rise in Māori crime rates, poor educational outcomes, sickness, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence ... etc

If these are the results of the destruction of our culture and the forced adoption of your culture, don't you think it is time to find a better answer - for all of us ????

That's the sort of bullshit I was referring to you go BanditBandit. Lets judge Maori violence by the modern European scale whilst bitching about adopting the culture.
And lets forget the tribal violence, slaves, cannibalism etc, etc. How about learning that from the Europeans, they are no longer in denial that they were bastards in the past and celebrate how far they have come.
Is that your problem, that some Maori have decided to reject the European culture, not move forward and now you want to blame that culture because they are stuck in a Victorian or tribal violent culture?

[Banditbandit]

I don't think the white people are forcing the treaty claims or the grabbing hands.

My commetn was in reference to another comment about wanting to return to a pre-European culture. We've never wanted that ...

You're blaming the white people for the maori not doing well at school and drug/alcohol abuse?? Seriously??

Blame is the wrong word ... and I'm not looking for excuses for the behaviour of some of our people ... there is plenty of research (starting with Franz Fanon) which shows the effects of 19th Century colonization on indigenous populations - it's the same the world over.

Some of us are certainly trying to addfress those very issues within our community - but not by adopting ways of the European-derived cultures, but by returning to the values of Māotri culture.

The domestic violence is merely a part of the warrior gene.. surely? Aren't maori/pacific people proud of that any more? From what you see in the courts, I thought it was a thriving part of the culture, rather than something to be ashamed of.

What warrior gene? Sure my Māori ancestors were warriors - but domestic violence was not paert of the culture. It's a behaviouir learnt from the Eurpoean settlers, and a frustration response ...

No. It's time that the minority of maori/pacific people that are intent on being criminals/separatists/etc. pulled their finger out of their ass, grew up a bit and got a job. It IS a minority. Most maori (well.. part maori, let's face it) are normal people with jobs/families/hobbies. The minority would probably find they enjoy their life a bit more if they didn't spend so much of it bleating about how hard done by they are.

I happen to agree with you there. That's part of why I work in education - because without it our people can only get low paid, seasonal work and other labouring jobs ..

[scumdog]

200 years of trying to teach us your ways has seen a massive rise in Māori crime rates, poor educational outcomes, sickness, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence ... etc

Only for the losers.

How come there's shit-loads of Maori who never get into trouble, work hard, embrace their culture and live in the 21st century without looking back at real or imagined injustices in their past every couple of minutes - and don't bleat on about how honky done them wrong and owes them a living??

[admenk]

The minority would probably find they enjoy their life a bit more if they didn't spend so much of it bleating about how hard done by they are.

I think that's called human nature and applies to all cultures and races. If we're honest it's also often the majority of us from time to time !

[Dave Lobster]

Only for the losers.

How come there's shit-loads of Maori who never get into trouble, work hard, embrace their culture and live in the 21st century without looking back at real or imagined injustices in their past every couple of minutes - and don't bleat on about how honky done them wrong and owes them a living??

Because they're not followers of the maori party line of:
You're a poor little nigger that should feel sorry for yourself.

I think that's called human nature and applies to all cultures and races. If we're honest it's also often the majority of us from time to time !

Not guilty on that one!

[Banditbandit]

That's the sort of bullshit I was referring to you go BanditBandit. Lets judge Maori violence by the modern European scale whilst bitching about adopting the culture.

I prefer to see it as judging it by a human scale ...

And lets forget the tribal violence, slaves, cannibalism etc, etc.

Tribal violence, slaves and cannibalism are all part of European history as well. (Cannibalism was minor but did occur occassionally even tho' it was prohibited) ... slavery was abolished in Britain and most of the emopire in 1833 ... after the arrival of Europeans in this part of the world ... your history of slavery is no older than ours ...

But how is the violent HUMAN past relevent now?

How about learning that from the Europeans, they are no longer in denial that they were bastards in the past and celebrate how far they have come.
Is that your problem, that some Maori have decided to reject the European culture, not move forward and now you want to blame that culture because they are stuck in a Victorian or tribal violent culture?

Of course we have learnt from the Europeans ... we have not rejected European culture, or its derivatives such as Pākehā culture, in its entirety ... we have adapted some Eurpoean cultural customs into our culture, just as Pākehā New Zealand has adapted some Māori customs and practises into it's culture .. this is what makes Pākehā culture unique ... Both cultures are chaging al the time, as a result of the interactions between us ... I am against forcing people to adopt those ways as the consequences can be as discussed above ...

Of course we want to move forward - on our terms ... and our culture is not stuck in Victorian Culture - any more than Pākehā culture is ..

And violence is not limited to Māori ... Pākehā culture is just as violent ... hmm .. I want to qualify that as little but not much .. not sure how to express what I mean ... but domestic violence and other forms of violence are not limited to Māori culture ... Pākehā parents beat their children too ... the violence of the Māori street gangs (blacks, Mongs etc) is the same as the violence in the patched motorcycle clubs which are largely European-descent memebrs ... Pākehā fathers hit their kids .. in fact the "anti-smacking law" people are largely made up of Pākehā NZers with a few Pacific Islanders ... no Māori voices opposed that law ....

As I said, pre-Eurpoean Māori culture did not condone child abuse .. in fact there are old stories of one partner abusing a child and the other partner's family taking action against the violent person ... children were cherished and loved ... they are our immortality .. we need to return our people to those values ...

Domestic Violence started with the arrival of the European settlers and the domination of their cultures. Is there a causal link? I believe so ...

[Banditbandit]

Only for the losers.

How come there's shit-loads of Maori who never get into trouble, work hard, embrace their culture and live in the 21st century without looking back at real or imagined injustices in their past every couple of minutes - and don't bleat on about how honky done them wrong and owes them a living??

Yes. But that does not invalid the reasons for the behavours of others who do ... (not bleat about being owed a living .. I don't support that behaviour at all ...)

And don't think I'm looking for excuses for criminal behaviour .. yes, Colonisation may partly give a reason .. but not a justification or an excuse .. and adults make their own decisions .. we need to lok at the whole picture .. noty just part of it .. to see the way forward

How come there are Pākehā in jail when other Pākehā are not? We are all human beings .. and some of us are just bad, lazy, don't care ... drop them in jail, boot them in arse ... race or culture doesn't matter ...

[Banditbandit]

Jeez .. my spelling and typing goes to hell when I get passionate ...

[Dave Lobster]

Of course we have learnt from the Europeans ... we have not rejected European culture, or its derivatives such as Pākehā culture, in its entirety ... we have adapted some Eurpoean cultural customs into our culture,

You'd struggle not to really. Everyone claiming to be maori is what, 50% maori at the most??

And violence is not limited to Māori ... Pākehā culture is just as violent ... hmm .. I want to qualify that as little but not much .. not sure how to express what I mean ... but domestic violence and other forms of violence are not limited to Māori culture ... Pākehā parents beat their children too ... the violence of the Māori street gangs (blacks, Mongs etc) is the same as the violence in the patched motorcycle clubs which are largely European-descent memebrs ... Pākehā fathers hit their kids .. in fact the "anti-smacking law" people are largely made up of Pākehā NZers with a few Pacific Islanders ... no Māori voices opposed that law ....

Rubbish. Stand in a court for a day.. any court. Manukau/North shore/Hastings/anywhere. A steady line of moari/pacific islanders trooping through for violence charges/gang charges/drugs charges.
No maori voices opposed the anti smacking law, you say? Why would they? The hidings they were giving the children were illegal before the law change. What difference would the law make to them?!

As I said, pre-Eurpoean Māori culture did not condone child abuse .. in fact there are old stories of one partner abusing a child and the other partner's family taking action against the violent person ... children were cherished and loved ... they are our immortality .. we need to return our people to those values ...

There are stories about a lot of things. That's why they're just stories.

Domestic Violence started with the arrival of the European settlers and the domination of their cultures. Is there a causal link? I believe so ...

Eh? White people turn up and that started maori beating people?
You don't really believe that, do you??

[Banditbandit]

You'd struggle not to really. Everyone claiming to be maori is what, 50% maori at the most??

And that is important because? You seem to think this is about race ... and therefoere blood quantum is important. To me it is about culture .. and blood quantum is irrelevant.

Rubbish. Stand in a court for a day.. any court. Manukau/North shore/Hastings/anywhere. A steady line of moari/pacific islanders trooping through for violence charges/gang charges/drugs charges.

And? I fail to see your point. Or maybe you are saying there were no Pākehā in court for those offences, so they are not committing those offenses? Now I'll say BULLSHIT!!! Maybe the popos didnt arrest them (nice white people like ) maybe they weren't reported to the popos by their neighbours .. maybe the beaten wives just wore long sleeves and sunglasses ... lots of maybes ...

No maori voices opposed the anti smacking law, you say? Why would they? The hidings they were giving the children were illegal before the law change. What difference would the law make to them?!

Or maybe because the people who could have spoken out thought it was a good law change and would help us reduce domestic violence in our communities.

There are stories about a lot of things. That's why they're just stories.



Eh? White people turn up and that started maori beating people?
You don't really believe that, do you??

The rest .. Hmm . there is such a large distparity between our worldviews that's it's nearly impossible for me to respond ...

And there lies the basic problem .. while we speak the same language (NZ English) there is very little in common between our weltanschuaang.

[Dave Lobster]

Hmm . there is such a large distparity between our worldviews that's it's nearly impossible for me to respond ...

Is yours mostly european and slightly maori then??