Climate change or global warming and who did it?

**jonbuoy** · 31st March 2011, 00:48

Originally Posted by Spearfish

I remember way back when fridge gas was the big one.
Now its carbon.
next week it will be fridge magnets....

You ever wondered why you have to wear so much sunscreen in NZ?

**Spearfish** · 31st March 2011, 06:42

Originally Posted by jonbuoy

You ever wondered why you have to wear so much sunscreen in NZ?

No, but we don't lead the world with an ozone tax do we?

**jonbuoy** · 31st March 2011, 07:02

Originally Posted by Spearfish

No, but we don't lead the world with an ozone tax do we?

They can´t ban carbon like they did CFC´s until there is an alternative. I guess their thinking is that businesses won´t start cutting down until they get hit in the spreadsheet. Although one look at Las Vegas and Chinese industrial areas makes taxing cows for farting a bit ridiculous and teaching the kids to put their cans in the recycling bin a bit futile.

**oneofsix** · 31st March 2011, 07:06

Originally Posted by Spearfish

I remember way back when fridge gas was the big one.
Now its carbon.
next week it will be fridge magnets....

by calling it 'fridge gas' you miss the connection. It was fluro-CARBONS and now its CARBON. And the same guy started both panics. I think this guy just hates carbon. He did get a Noble Award for saving the planet from fridge gas, then he was proved wrong

**jonbuoy** · 31st March 2011, 07:18

Originally Posted by oneofsix

by calling it 'fridge gas' you miss the connection. It was fluro-CARBONS and now its CARBON. And the same guy started both panics. I think this guy just hates carbon. He did get a Noble Award for saving the planet from fridge gas, then he was proved wrong

Was he proved wrong?

**shrub** · 31st March 2011, 08:19

Originally Posted by jonbuoy

They can´t ban carbon like they did CFC´s until there is an alternative. I guess their thinking is that businesses won´t start cutting down until they get hit in the spreadsheet. Although one look at Las Vegas and Chinese industrial areas makes taxing cows for farting a bit ridiculous and teaching the kids to put their cans in the recycling bin a bit futile.

It's already starting to happen - or more to the point the world's business leaders are all taking climate change very, very seriously because they're smart enough to recognise that if they don't they won't be business leaders for too much longer. In a recent opinion survey of the world's leading CEOs, 93% said climate change was the biggest challenge to the long term viability of their businesses and needed immediate attention. Unlike people on internet message boards these guys are smart enough not to listen to spin doctors and to listen to the people who have done the research.

Originally Posted by Woodman

Reading all you guys posts just reconfirms to me that nothing will ever get done about what we are doing to this place. Don't get me wrong your views are interesting and well documented but basically analysis paralysis.

See above. Increasingly business leaders are waking up to the realisation that things have to change.

Originally Posted by mashman

I wouldn't say that deniers have their opinions based on fearful findings... what gives them that impression?

For many businesses a major fear is that they will be required to pay for the waste they dump in the atmosphere (just like you and I pay to take a ute load of crap to the dump) and that would impact severely on their bottom line and they would lose competiveness or even viability. If there wasn't the kind of doubt that their campaign has sown it would be easy for governments to demand that all businesses pay for all their waste disposal including emission of greenhouse gases or even legislate against the major polluters.

And a hell of a lot of businesses are capitalising on the ability to pollute freely in India and China. If the west were required to clean up their act pressure would soon be placed on developing nations, and that would really hurt a lot of businesses. Even though the overwhelming majority of global business leaders acknowledge the gravity of the situation, there are many that don't and some that do who would like to be free to pollute for a little longer.

**Spearfish** · 31st March 2011, 09:38

So rather than Carbon Tax 4.5million New Zealanders and send the money way off shore to a remote far flung part of the planet to pay for computers, beakers, office space, cars, staff, research grants, some geek to keep rewriting wiki, advertising, movie star endorsements, documentary's etc why not keep the money in house?

**mashman** · 31st March 2011, 10:04

Originally Posted by shrub

For many businesses a major fear is that they will be required to pay for the waste they dump in the atmosphere (just like you and I pay to take a ute load of crap to the dump) and that would impact severely on their bottom line and they would lose competiveness or even viability. If there wasn't the kind of doubt that their campaign has sown it would be easy for governments to demand that all businesses pay for all their waste disposal including emission of greenhouse gases or even legislate against the major polluters.

And a hell of a lot of businesses are capitalising on the ability to pollute freely in India and China. If the west were required to clean up their act pressure would soon be placed on developing nations, and that would really hurt a lot of businesses. Even though the overwhelming majority of global business leaders acknowledge the gravity of the situation, there are many that don't and some that do who would like to be free to pollute for a little longer.

Like the ETS. Fortunately businesses have the luxury of passing those costs on to their end users. After all, they're just responding to a demand for goods and services, so they're polluting on our behalf

... so i'd say that the 93% of hyper intelligent of CEO's fears of extra taxation and "sanctions" isn't a fear at all, more a minor concern at having to raise prices. The survey answers are nothing more than the usual placation imho, bullshit spin for, yes we care, keep buying our stuff because we're thinking about the environment and have been for some time now. After all, this has been an identified problem for decades, not just a couple of years... and how many of these concerned CEO's have implemented wind generation or solar power to help run their businesses? Or are they just leaving that up to the power generators

@legislation... coz legislation really works

. The US didn't sign the the Kyoto Agreement, what makes people think that any form of legislation is going to work against heavy polluters? They'll just move their "offices" to India and China, like so many have already and "talk" about the problem.

Placation, analysis paralysis, call it what you like... those 93% of surveyed CEO's are out to make money at any cost that isn't financial. Ditch using money and we may well be in with a shout at cleaning up our environment. It'd go a long way towards slowing the population growth too. It'd have a massive affect on lowering crime rates. Research could make huge strides forwards instead of budget constrained baby steps, and the social benefits of all of those things are something entirely mind watering.

But as Woodman points out, we'd probably need a humane Mugabi or Gadaffi to make that happen... or at least a country full of people that see cooperation as the best way of running a country, and not money.

**Woodman** · 31st March 2011, 20:58

Originally Posted by jonbuoy

You ever wondered why you have to wear so much sunscreen in NZ?

New Zealand....The only country on the planet that I get sunburned.

**Scuba_Steve** · 31st March 2011, 21:19

Originally Posted by shrub

Run out of arguments huh?

nope, but surely you know what they say about arguing with an idiot

I just wish the wankers would stop this religion tax & sort REAL problems like pollution. Manawatus river most polluted in southern hemisphere (I think) definitely most polluted in NZ how bout sort shit like that?... Ohhh wait there's no $$$ to be made by actually saving the planet

**Winston001** · 1st April 2011, 05:49

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

I just wish the wankers would stop this religion tax & sort REAL problems like pollution. Manawatus river most polluted in southern hemisphere (I think) definitely most polluted in NZ how bout sort shit like that?... Ohhh wait there's no $$$ to be made by actually saving the planet

I know you are trolling and don't really believe this. As you know there is bucketloads of money to be made by bureaucrats and contractors cleaning rivers and sewage. And everybody knows pollution is the real problem with carbon taxes forcing people to look for non-polluting methods of farming and town sewage.

**oneofsix** · 1st April 2011, 06:10

Originally Posted by Winston001

I know you are trolling and don't really believe this. As you know there is bucketloads of money to be made by bureaucrats and contractors cleaning rivers and sewage. And everybody knows pollution is the real problem with carbon taxes forcing people to look for non-polluting methods of farming and town sewage.

carbon tax and climate change have lost there relationship to pollution in general. They don't give a rats arse about pollution. Look at your mercury 'long' life light bulbs for example. They pollute big time, where as the old incandescent one don't. Do you know how you are meant to dispose of your 'long life lightbulb when it die prematurely due to a power spike? If we could have carbon free, non-polluting electricity in this country.
Carbon tax is just a get rich scheme that means you and I pay more for the corporation to juggle funny money. It doesn't stop pollution, might shift it but as one countries pollution is shared by all thats not going to do any good for pollution.

**oneofsix** · 1st April 2011, 06:41

Are the climate 'scentists' given up?

Society needs to take over from science when we're talking about global risk management.

"We can't wait till the scientists understand everything."

Sounds like surrender to me. Perhaps for this subject they could change everything for anything

Doesn't this sound like the snakeoil salesman

"I'm not saying it's catastrophe looming. I'm saying it's uncertainty."

Panic NOW! We don't know why but please PANIC and do stupid things.

Society must be killed to save society.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4834...ngs-on-climate

Oh love the headline to, of course they do its what the frigging conference is about and their excuse to spend the money on it.

**mashman** · 1st April 2011, 07:42

Originally Posted by oneofsix

Are the climate 'scentists' given up?

Originally Posted by Martin Manning?

Society needs to take over from science when we're talking about global risk management.

"We can't wait till the scientists understand everything."

They're not giving up and haven't.

They admit that their understanding of what is going on is incomplete and that their theories can't explain everything.

They can see that the climate is changing and irrespective of wether humans are responsible partially/wholly/or not at all for that climate change, then better safe than sorry is the go.

It sounds as though the climategate scientists are telling us that they can't stop the Govt/Polluters/ETScam through their normal channels, their climate change evidence isn't enough (or maybe it is and there's nothing that can be done about it, so why do anything

). It almost sounds like the scientists are urging Society to revolt

.

Personally i'm with the scientists. They're witnessing a natural phenomena and it's one that we really aren't prepared for. What's causing the phenomena really should be put on the back burner.