Climate change or global warming and who did it?

[shrub]

"And when people say we cannot do it & that it cant be done....I would like to say to the naysayers.....youre right, youre too fucking ignorant & until commonsense & the love of our planet outweighs the comfort consumerism of our culture,we are in a word ...Fucked."
(Obamas original speech notes before the spin doctors edited it)

It's the 9th of June and I think we have had a couple of mild frosts. I still ride around town in kevlar jeans and a fully vented jacket with unlined gloves and right now I am wearing a T shirt and jeans. I'm enjoying the warmth, but we live in an environment that needs it to be cold this time of year for key things to happen. I have plants that need major frosts to die back so they can regrow in Spring, but they're just growing more and more and others that only start the fruiting process after a cold snap. I don't care about polar bears or penguins all that much, but i do care about my garden because I eat stuff from my garden and I like to eat.

In the longer term and beyond my belly climate change will hit many of our big export earners hard and it will hit our markets even harder which means our income as a country will drop. We need to take it seriously because it's real and we're the main cause, but the big polluters have done a sterling job of convincing ordinary people that it's all a scam to make them (the ordinary people) pay more taxes, so instead of getting consensus and action we have endless and pointless debate where the same fallacious arguments get pulled out over and over and over.

As a result the major polluters (which ain't you and I) get off scot free. They all know climate change is real and that they cause most of it, but they don't care because they have their money in trusts and no matter what happens they will be largely insulated. Unlike you and I who will pay big time.

It really pisses me off because if we got off our arses now we could still protect our lifestyles. We won't stop climate change, it's too late for that, but we can reduce it in the future and more importantly develop the technologies and systems to mitigate its impacts on our lives. But we won't because enough people have been convinced to ignore the scientists and real experts and listen to the spin doctors to turn it into an endless debate.

[Jantar]

....We won't stop climate change, it's too late for that, but we can reduce it in the future and more importantly develop the technologies and systems to mitigate its impacts on our lives. ....

Yes, If we stop emitting any CO2 right now. That is no fuel use of any sort, no coal, no oil, no petrol etc. If we stop all electricity production that uses any fossil fuel, and stop building any new power stations at all. If we stop all building that uses concrete or steel. If we do all that we will lower the modelled temperature rise by 0.0002 degrees C. Yes a whole 2 ten thousandths of a degree. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/0...er/#more-41091

But that is modelled temperature rise, not measured. We can't measure temperature to that degree of accuracy.

[oneofsix]

Yes, If we stop emitting any CO2 right now. That is no fuel use of any sort, no coal, no oil, no petrol etc. If we stop all electricity production that uses any fossil fuel, and stop building any new power stations at all. If we stop all building that uses concrete or steel. If we do all that we will lower the modelled temperature rise by 0.0002 degrees C. Yes a whole 2 ten thousandths of a degree. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/0...er/#more-41091

But that is modelled temperature rise, not measured. We can't measure temperature to that degree of accuracy.

and we are still not at the temperatures where they had vineyards in Britain and that was only back in Roman Britain times.

[shrub]

Yes, If we stop emitting any CO2 right now. That is no fuel use of any sort, no coal, no oil, no petrol etc. If we stop all electricity production that uses any fossil fuel, and stop building any new power stations at all. If we stop all building that uses concrete or steel. If we do all that we will lower the modelled temperature rise by 0.0002 degrees C. Yes a whole 2 ten thousandths of a degree. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/0...er/#more-41091

But that is modelled temperature rise, not measured. We can't measure temperature to that degree of accuracy.

Exactly my point. Deeply flawed and irrelevant arguments based on false science - Anthony Watts was a TV and radio weather announcer and has NO recorded qualifications in climate science or meteorology, so why listen to him over people who actually know what they're talking about? I'll tell you why, he has got you scared that the evil scientists want to take away your bike/car/truck and stop you using electricity and tax you more at the same time.

[Scuba_Steve]

Exactly my point. Deeply flawed and irrelevant arguments based on false science - Anthony Watts was a TV and radio weather announcer and has NO recorded qualifications in climate science or meteorology, so why listen to him over people who actually know what they're talking about? I'll tell you why, he has got you scared that the evil scientists want to take away your bike/car/truck and stop you using electricity and tax you more at the same time.

you use "people that know what they're talking about" & "climate science" in the same sentance

[Jantar]

Exactly my point. Deeply flawed and irrelevant arguments based on false science - Anthony Watts was a TV and radio weather announcer and has NO recorded qualifications in climate science or meteorology, so why listen to him over people who actually know what they're talking about? I'll tell you why, he has got you scared that the evil scientists want to take away your bike/car/truck and stop you using electricity and tax you more at the same time.

That information came the Anthony Watts web site, but was not quoted by Anthony Watts. Maybe you should follow the link. The information came from Julia Gilliards Science advisor and was made public in a public debate. But because it was reported on WUWT suddenly it isn't true? So what is the correct figure then?

[shrub]

That information came the Anthony Watts web site, but was not quoted by Anthony Watts. Maybe you should follow the link. The information came from Julia Gilliards Science advisor and was made public in a public debate. But because it was reported on WUWT suddenly it isn't true? So what is the correct figure then?

I read the following: "The opponents of the tax were awarded a clear win, on rendered applause, by debate Chairman Mr Mark Ludlow (Australian Financial Review).

Source: summary written by an attendee known to me – Anthony"

Therefore I immediately discounted the silly article but I have just gone back to see if i can find any valid source for the claims by Anthony's friend and all I got was a link to the WED website. Forgive me if I don't take it all that seriously because I have learned that just because someone writes something on a blog it doesn't make it true and just because the majority (as measured by applause - a well known scientific method) think something doesn't make it right either.

And on that note I have far better things to do than waste my time arguing with people who are so deeply invested in their position that there is no evidence strong enough to convince them as long as somewhere out there a blog supports their position.

[puddytat]

Certainly, if we are to stand any chance at all of saving ourselves from extinction, measures need to be global, draconian and immediate. Can anyone see that happening?

Unless there's Aliens with Rayguns pointed at our heads........N0.
The thing is, when it gets so bad that no one can ignore it the "People" will jump up
& down & blame the Govt of the day.Not since 1978 & Montreal have they done much at all except release more hot air & pay lip service to KYOTO .Maybe threatening them with Crimes against Humanity would help?(possibly an avenue to explore?)
Life is still good in West & nothing will be done untill its to late.
Life is still crap everywhere else & they dont want to go without. Nor should they. WE all will end up going without.

[Winston001]

And on that note I have far better things to do than waste my time arguing with people who are so deeply invested in their position that there is no evidence strong enough to convince them as long as somewhere out there a blog supports their position.

I'm with you but Jantar has an opposite position. However I respect his views and he isn't silly. He's argued coherently in other threads on this topic and makes valid points about atmospheric influences on climate.


Of course he's wrong...

[Winston001]

Unless there's Aliens with Rayguns pointed at our heads........N0.
The thing is, when it gets so bad that no one can ignore it the "People" will jump up
& down & blame the Govt of the day.Not since 1978 & Montreal have they done much at all except release more hot air & pay lip service to KYOTO .Maybe threatening them with Crimes against Humanity would help?(possibly an avenue to explore?)
Life is still good in West & nothing will be done untill its to late.
Life is still crap everywhere else & they dont want to go without. Nor should they. WE all will end up going without.

All joking aside I think you are right. The history of man is that we do not take radical action until the excrement hits the rotating device. Which is usually far too late.

[shrub]

I'm with you but Jantar has an opposite position. However I respect his views and he isn't silly. He's argued coherently in other threads on this topic and makes valid points about atmospheric influences on climate.


Of course he's wrong...

I also respect him because he's an intelligent man, which is why it saddens - and even annoys me - that he uses such flimsy arguments.

[Edbear]

Interesting reads.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10731622

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/climate-ch...ectid=10727607

[Pussy]

Are you sitting down?
Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet – all of you.

Of course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress – it’s that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow, and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans, and all animal life.



I know, it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of: driving Priushybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50 cent light bulbs with $10.00 light bulbs...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.



The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud any one time - EVERY DAY.



I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth. Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year – think about it.



Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely tree-hugging moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keeps happening, despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.



And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact of the matter is that the brush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.



Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping new carbon tax on you on the basis of the bogus “human-caused” climate change scenario.



Hey, isn’t it interesting how they don’t mention “Global Warming” any more, but just “Climate Change” - you know why? It’s because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.



And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme – that whopping new tax – imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer. It won’t stop any volcanoes from erupting, that’s for sure.



But hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice day!



PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?

[Pussy]

^ shameless copy and paste of an email I got... but a goodie!

[Jantar]

^ shameless copy and paste of an email I got... but a goodie!

It does make good reading, but unfortuantely is not correct. I have posted the correct data previously (I think it was this thread but may have been an earlier global warming one). From memory, and without going back and looking for my other post on it, the amount of CO2 was in the order of 300 MT which is about the amount of fuel used by aircraft in europe in one week.