Climate change or global warming and who did it?

[Ocean1]

And you tell me not to post up cartoons.

Actually I'd rather you didn't bother posting at all, but if you must darken our door then cartoons are at least more coherent than your own home made drivel.

Is a pity `The Rational Optimist: How prosperity evolves' don't have pictures, you could have improved yourself by reading it. You'd really enjoy it, it demonstrates that everything you believe is wrong.

As if anyone really wanted to know...

[bogan]

Actually I'd rather you didn't bother posting at all, but if you must darken our door then cartoons are at least more coherent than your own home made drivel.

Is a pity `The Rational Optimist: How prosperity evolves' don't have pictures, you could have improved yourself by reading it. You'd really enjoy it, it demonstrates that everything you believe is wrong.

As if anyone really wanted to know...

I especially like the bit where he used transparent figures to back up his points, certanily not just one man's opinion. Given the calibre of counter-arguments, I think it time to fire up the old 2T

[mashman]

Actually I'd rather you didn't bother posting at all

[mashman]

I especially like the bit where he used transparent figures to back up his points, certanily not just one man's opinion. Given the calibre of counter-arguments, I think it time to fire up the old 2T

[hayd3n]

so no rush on building the ARK?

[jonbuoy]

so no rush on building the ARK?

According to chicken licken on the news this morning Ebola is going to get us first.

[Jantar]

Kind of makes you wonder how long we've had accurate measurements of the sub surface temperature of the Eastern Pacific Ocean?

Argo deployments began in 2000 . http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/ So any temperature claims for prior to that are results of estimation and modelling based on occasional submarine records.

[R650R]

If only one had the cash to get in on the wind turbine scam...

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-30200656.html

[Ocean1]

If only one had the cash to get in on the wind turbine scam...

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-30200656.html

It's not a scam so much as the real cost of operating a power generating asset that depends on an irregular weather phenomenon in a market where there's highly irregular demand for it's product. If the cost of building them was accounted for simply from kwh sold the price wouldn't be commercially acceptable.

Blame whatever green flavoured policy changes that supported the implementation of the technology in the first place, windmills only make cheap power in books that have been fiddled with.

[mashman]

If only one had the cash to get in on the wind turbine scam...

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-30200656.html

Why not invest in storage solutions instead of paying companies to switch shit off? Typical human effort... half arsed with money being the driving factor.

[Jantar]

..... windmills only make cheap power in books that have been fiddled with.

Why not invest in storage solutions instead of paying companies to switch shit off? Typical human effort... half arsed with money being the driving factor.

Both of you are correct. Wind power is a cheap way to generate electrical energy, at times when it isn't needed, but can't generate at times that it is needed. The solution is storage, in the the form of pumped storage hydro stations. When the wind blows and excess electricity is being generated, water is pumped from a lower lake to a higher lake (eg Roxburgh to Onslow). When the wind doesn't blow and electricity is needed the water is allowed to flow from the higher lake to a lower one (eg Onslow to Roxburgh).

At present there are no pumped storage hydro schemes in New Zealand, although a PhD thesis is being researched on one right now by Mohammed Majeed of Waikato university. The Onslow pumped storage scheme, if it were to proceed, would cost around $3 billion and allow for up to 1200 MW of additional wind generation in New Zealand, along with providing dry year security with up to 3 times the current maximum staorage available in New Zealand.

Trouble is, now that the electricity companies have been split up, none of them are big enough to engage in a project of that size that would provide a long term benefit, but intermittent and unplannable returns in the short term.

[Ocean1]

The solution is storage, in the the form of pumped storage hydro stations.

It's such an obviously good strategy eh? And reasonably efficient.

Trouble is, now that the electricity companies have been split up, none of them are big enough to engage in a project of that size that would provide a long term benefit, but intermittent and unplannable returns in the short term.

Yeah, bad move that. Inserting a whole new layer in the supply chain cost us more immediately, fragmenting the generating resource will cost us more in the long run.

Nationalise the lot?

[mashman]

Both of you are correct. Wind power is a cheap way to generate electrical energy, at times when it isn't needed, but can't generate at times that it is needed. The solution is storage, in the the form of pumped storage hydro stations. When the wind blows and excess electricity is being generated, water is pumped from a lower lake to a higher lake (eg Roxburgh to Onslow). When the wind doesn't blow and electricity is needed the water is allowed to flow from the higher lake to a lower one (eg Onslow to Roxburgh).

At present there are no pumped storage hydro schemes in New Zealand, although a PhD thesis is being researched on one right now by Mohammed Majeed of Waikato university. The Onslow pumped storage scheme, if it were to proceed, would cost around $3 billion and allow for up to 1200 MW of additional wind generation in New Zealand, along with providing dry year security with up to 3 times the current maximum staorage available in New Zealand.

Trouble is, now that the electricity companies have been split up, none of them are big enough to engage in a project of that size that would provide a long term benefit, but intermittent and unplannable returns in the short term.

They have a couple in Scotland and they seem to do the trick quite nicely. I was also thinking along the lines of household capacitor banks that may also help lower the load of peak demand? I think we all understand that no single "green" technology can generate all of our power needs and all that seems to be missing is "sensible" storage. Why not do it where the power is needed, at the house. Might be expensive, but surely a better idea than giving electricity companies money for nothing?

[R650R]

Agree with everyones responses, was just posting for those not aware. There's been other articles on this subject before.
Also even when they are running other gas/coal/hydro stations have to be kept spooled up incase the wind drops/stops to balance the load as they take time to get up to speed.
The problem is this is public money subsidising these things, if they were serious about pollution/emmisions the solution for now would be to put that same money into buying everyone the latest most efficient fridges/washing machines etc.
Its kinda ironic too that all this investment is being made under the guise of climate change, wont that mean the winds could change...
Another reason behind these things being shutdown so often is to make their lifespan look economically feasible, bit like nanas car that only goes out on weekends instead of a taxi running 24/7 that's shagged after 3 years etc...
Why are we not seeing home units on a smaller affordable scale like what some lifestyle/bach owners have??? the answer it gives away control to the people.

[schrodingers cat]

There is the arguement that the last thing the world needs is free energy...