Cornering - apex - explain?

[MSTRS:Me]

I see you've played this game before.

[oneofsix]

I see you've played this game before.

actually it was a comment from a relative that had towed a caravan over the Rumataka's that I couldn't defend that woke me up this risk before I was stupid enough to put myself in line for decapitation. I can imagine what having to suddenly lift your head clear of the caravan does to your line and bike control.

[Devil]

That's all you need,leave the over analysing to those who like to hang their tea towels straight and talk for hours about centrifugal force.

That'd be centripetal, dolt.

[CHOPPA]

Go and do the California Superbike School. It will help your riding immensely

[Tricia1000]

The "meeting" as mentioned below is known as the visual point, limit point, or vanishing point. By reading the way this point is moving, you can easily read how tight the corner is going to be.
However, I wouldn't suggest reading Twist of the Wrist, I would recommend reading Roadcraft.
It delivers explanations based on riding in road situations, not track situations.

this is the real point, after all.

the method that works best for me is looking at the speed of the lines' matching: you look at the road's edges and where they meet round the corner.
if the "meeting" moves fast, it's a large turn, if it stays almost fixed, that's a sharp one.
once you've figured out the radius, the you can figure out the position of the apex...

[MSTRS:Me]

The "meeting" as mentioned below is known as the visual point, limit point, or vanishing point. By reading the way this point is moving, you can easily read how tight the corner is going to be.

A lot of riders (some quite experienced) don't seem to 'get' the vanishing point, if an earlier thread of mine is anything to go by.
Personally, I don't 'get' how it's possible to ride without using the technique.
The VP doesn't move as such - you do. But it's apparent distance in front of you changes, relative to your speed and how tight the corner is. If the VP is getting closer to you, then the corner is tightening. This is the vital information a rider needs to gauge whether they need to adjust their speed.

[Grubber]

Go and do the California Superbike School. It will help your riding immensely

I'd recomend this also. Been riding for a couple of (hundred) years and i learnt plenty from doing the Califoria Superbike School. Thumbs Up from me.

[Mental Trousers]

Probably best to try it on your own side of the road first though.

Could've flipped the image, but then the words don't make any sense.

[george formby]

Soo....thanks to years of reading KB I eventually changed to what I guess is a mix of Delayed and Early. It doesn't fit the lines exactly but works for me on the bike and in my vehicle.

My decades of habit was Delayed apex but that put me on/over the centre line at speed on the far side of the corner. Plus on the bike I wasn't then set up for the next bend of an S.

So now I drive wide entering the corner which gives much better vision ahead and a lot more road to play with. This isn't high-speed stuff just normal conservative driving but its easy on our roads to find tight corners so seeing ahead is very helpful.

It feels much better. Cheers.

If you focus on observation as you approach & enter a corner, keeping to the left or right of your lane to maximise your view, it gives you a greater upright braking distance & a smoother transition from braking to leaning to accelerating through the apex when your vanishing point starts to move away from you. By the same token if the vanishing point is moving towards you as you enter the corner you have the space to increase your braking & slow down harder with the bike fairly upright. Either way, when you do tip into the corner you are turning away from potential hazards of on coming traffic or scenery.

If you can see through a corner or two before you get their I suggest knocking down a gear, cranking it over & giving it the herbs on exit. Aaaah, lubbly.

IMHO

[Motu]

A lot of riders (some quite experienced) don't seem to 'get' the vanishing point,

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.My style would be dirttrack/dirt - it's a late deep entry,tip over hard and fast,on the gas and out.My bike is set up for a lot of front end grip (rear tyre on the front) and works well this way.

[george formby]

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.My style would be dirttrack/dirt - it's a late deep entry,tip over hard and fast,on the gas and out.My bike is set up for a lot of front end grip (rear tyre on the front) and works well this way.

The vanishing point is the extreme limit of your visibility. It dictates the speed you can safely enter a corner & be able to stop should a hazard appear at that limit. The better you are at reading your vanishing point the smoother you ride & potentially the higher your average speed without compromising safety.

Ironically the lines you end up riding often allow for a cornering style like yours, that's more or less how I ride too. Boxing off the first part of the corner but carrying more momentum through the apex & out of the corner.

[MSTRS:Me]

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.

None of that tells me that you don't use the VP to assist. Chances are, as an longtime rider, your subconscious recognises what's going on so allowing your conscious mind to concentrate on enjoying the flow.
Short of actually knowing the road, what other clue is there to tell you a corner needs to be dealt with in this way or that?

[The Stranger:Me]

So now I drive wide entering the corner which gives much better vision ahead and a lot more road to play with. This isn't high-speed stuff just normal conservative driving but its easy on our roads to find tight corners so seeing ahead is very helpful.

It feels much better. Cheers.

Another good reason for staying wide until you can see your exit is clear can be seen on the attached image.

I have seen it dozens of times on this bend, a bike travelling left to right enters from LHS of lane goes over the centre line on exit OR enters from RHS of lane and apexes mid corner goes over the centre line on exit.

[Motu]

Short of actually knowing the road, what other clue is there to tell you a corner needs to be dealt with in this way or that?

Oh boy,if the Vanishing Point is the only card you've got to play,you sure aren't stacking the deck in your favour.There are a shit load of clues to tell you how a corner needs to be dealt with.

[stormerUK]

The correct entry position/line for a (road) bend is the one that enables maximum vision through the bend which will be well to the left on a RH bend and road centre on a LH bend. It's seeing what's coming and where the road goes next that matters. Hence if you can't stop safely in that parameter then bang!