Rodney Hide resigns

[Mental Trousers]

Don Brash is working his way towards a position where he can actually do something about the economy.

As the Governor of the Reserve Bank he was limited in what he could do, restricted to reacting to trends in the economy and making small adjustments to get things back into balance.

With the National Party he was encumbered by the inherent inertia of a large, well established organisation that will resist the kind of change that we're going to need.

In a National/ACT coalition where ACT holds far more seats than they have so far he'll have the necessary leverage to get things moving. Wouldn't surprise me if he went gunning for the Finance Ministers position in the coalition.

With Roger Douglas alongside him (already is as seen in how abruptly Rodney Hide has been rolled) and Banksy (skipping straight past the position he missed out on), Don Brash is about to take this country where we've never been before.

It's going to be quite a ride.

[short-circuit]

With Roger Douglas alongside him (already is as seen in how abruptly Rodney Hide has been rolled) and Banksy (skipping straight past the position he missed out on), Don Brash is about to take this country where we've never been before.

...yeah - to the cleaners

[Mental Trousers]

So far every economic strategy has failed. Every single one. This has been proven time and time again.....

ALL economic strategies fail. None of the strategies available to us now, including the strategies people can dream up, will last forever.

However, each different strategy we turn to will advance us toward a position where eventually we have it all.

What we're debating now is which branch in a path to take towards that eventual goal. People always make the mistake of arguing which ever economic/political strategy they subscribe to is the answer forever and a day, when in fact the strategic path they're arguing for is a stepping stone.

I don't think the human race as a whole is yet capable of seeing the final path to the goal. We'll get there, but for now all we can do is take step, see where it takes us and learn from that so we can take the next step forward.

Rogernomics, Communism, Resource Based Economy, Ultra Capitalism, Keynsianism, Marxism ....... they're all stepping stones on our way to the eventual goal.

[Mental Trousers]

...yeah - to the cleaners

Some would say we've been there already ...

[mashman]

ALL economic strategies fail. None of the strategies available to us now, including the strategies people can dream up, will last forever.

However, each different strategy we turn to will advance us toward a position where eventually we have it all.

What we're debating now is which branch in a path to take towards that eventual goal. People always make the mistake of arguing which ever economic/political strategy they subscribe to is the answer forever and a day, when in fact the strategic path they're arguing for is a stepping stone.

I don't think the human race as a whole is yet capable of seeing the final path to the goal. We'll get there, but for now all we can do is take step, see where it takes us and learn from that so we can take the next step forward.

Rogernomics, Communism, Resource Based Economy, Ultra Capitalism, Keynsianism, Marxism ....... they're all stepping stones on our way to the eventual goal.

I agree that it's an iterative process and that no "single" strategy is a catch all for setting us on the right path, but i'm yet to see one in the last 20 years that has done anything positive for a country as a whole. Have you? Baby steps or not, building on top of what we currently have is not the way forwards. It's an utterly utterly broken system of laws and financial mismanagement. Hence I'd rather Option 3, because the year 3 tinker achieves nothing and only a complete overhaul will "change" the way society views itself and it's possibilities.

I disagree at our readiness (we haven't asked them yet ). I'm ready . There's likely a few on KB that are ready too, perhaps others in the country ... We ALL watch and yearn for change year in and year out and see nothing but more failed tinkering from badly thought out and badly implemented policies. I guess it's all a matter of personal perspective, but i've yet to see anything actually change for the better, and not just for the few either . @ taking the steps... I understand that that's what it takes in the current "environment", don't get me wrong, I do see it, but I also see a much easier way of addressing societies issues without sacrificing the finances of the country too, after all we live on a global market... we could do things a damn site better a damn site better.

Of that stepping stone list you produced, the Resource Based Economy is the only one that doesn't require a financial system . Therefore no budget constraints, ideas for ideas sakes validated on their merit and not how much it's gonna cost. You have to admit, financial cost is the killer.

[Mental Trousers]

I agree that it's an iterative process and that no "single" strategy is a catch all for setting us on the right path, but i'm yet to see one in the last 20 years that has done anything positive for a country as a whole. Have you?

When my parents were children they lived in houses that used coal ranges for cooking. They literally heated water up which got poured into a tub so they could take a bath. I'm not exaggerating either, I've seen both of the houses with my own eyes.

How many houses these days still have coal ranges and coppers?? Children don't get pulled out of school to go and find a job so that their family can eat either. At least, not in this country. These days starving children are almost entirely due to their parents.

I call that progress. How come you don't??

I disagree at our readiness (we haven't asked them yet ). I'm ready . There's likely a few on KB that are ready too, perhaps others in the country ...

Unfortunately, you and the others that are ready don't constitute the entire human race. When humans eventually attain a state where everyone has everything they want or need it won't be while we're fractured into different nations, races or believes.

Do you truly think you're at that level??

Of that stepping stone list you produced...

It's just a list of various theories, an incomplete one at that. It's not in anyway stepping stones to be taken in a certain order etc. I'm sure that's not how you took it but it reads that way. Sorry if I'm mistaken.

[Jantar]

...yeah - to the cleaners

About time too. Someone needs to clean up the mess left by the Liarbore government.

[mashman]

When my parents were children they lived in houses that used coal ranges for cooking. They literally heated water up which got poured into a tub so they could take a bath. I'm not exaggerating either, I've seen both of the houses with my own eyes.

How many houses these days still have coal ranges and coppers?? Children don't get pulled out of school to go and find a job so that their family can eat either. At least, not in this country. These days starving children are almost entirely due to their parents.

I call that progress. How come you don't??

Heh, i've lived in a caravan without electricity or gas or a bath or a functioning cooker in my time, although it did come with in cupboard mice . I've also lived in "problem" areas and scrounged down the back of the couch for nappy and food money... in context, some people don't have baths at all and use the local rivers for everything water related, some don't have cookers either... have a little look at the TV, you may see it every now and then and that is present day, not 30 years ago () But yes, back in NZ...

starving due to their parents... true to a certain extent, but that's mainly down to what can be afforded through the chosen lifestyle... of which, in the current environment, there are very few choices, some legal, some not so (but pay better). And some children leave school themselves and become "earners" in their own right, some have children to earn money, some break and enter, some go a mugging etc... we've replaced one shite system with another and have called it progress, and they are all based on amassing enough money to survive.

So no, I don't really look at it as political progress. More technology led progress.

Unfortunately, you and the others that are ready don't constitute the entire human race. When humans eventually attain a state where everyone has everything they want or need it won't be while we're fractured into different nations, races or believes.

Do you truly think you're at that level??

Someone has to be first. If it works, do you not think the entire human race would follow? I'd say they're not ready because they're not fully aware of the alternative and it's glaring upsides. I've always been ready, but until I worked it out through myself, I never thought it truly feasible either... the last 2 - 3 years have really hammered it home, to a point where I am happy to be seen as nothing more than just another faceless human being and to do what's necessary to support the lives and the environment around me (after all, that's what I am currently, but I could do without the financial pressure encroaching on my family time). And i'm not a fuckin hippy , just a realist in an unrealistic world. My personal wants have waned... sure I still want want want, but won't do what it takes to get get get, the cost in my case being time with my family... i'd also be more than happy with less, if it meant society was a little safer and much more cooperative... trust is key I suppose, and where money is a factor .........

So yes, i truly feel that i'm at that level (give or take), and i'm 100% sure that i'm not alone in that respect... there will be, at least, one other somewhere, heh. I also reckon (ass hat guess) that most of NZ is at that level too... they just need to be engaged on the subject ... now there's an easy challenge for the pollies (that is their job isn't it?)

It's just a list of various theories, an incomplete one at that. It's not in anyway stepping stones to be taken in a certain order etc. I'm sure that's not how you took it but it reads that way. Sorry if I'm mistaken.

Yeah I understood what you meant. Yet I see them as a string of catastrophic strategy failures (in no particular order) that have led us to the point we are at today. And given we've made huge strides forwards in terms of technology and understanding the world around us, socially we've taken giant strides backwards because of those theories.

[BoristheBiter]

Heh, i've lived in a caravan without electricity or gas or a bath or a functioning cooker in my time, although it did come with in cupboard mice . I've also lived in................................socially we've taken giant strides backwards because of those theories.

I would love to be able to look though those rose colored glasses you have on.

All I see is people wanting what I have worked hard for and expect to do nothing for it or someone saying i should share it around.

[Mental Trousers]

Heh, i've lived in a caravan without electricity or gas or a bath or a functioning cooker in my time, although it did come with in cupboard mice . I've also lived in "problem" areas and scrounged down the back of the couch for nappy and food money... in context, some people don't have baths at all and use the local rivers for everything water related, some don't have cookers either... have a little look at the TV, you may see it every now and then and that is present day, not 30 years ago () But yes, back in NZ...

Other countries are getting there. Different countries advance at different rates, but they are all moving away from subsistence living etc. Not at a rate that would please the vast majority of people, but it is happening.

... we've replaced one shite system with another and have called it progress, and they are all based on amassing enough money to survive.

So no, I don't really look at it as political progress. More technology led progress.

It's an advancement over Tribalism, Cannibalism, Feudalism, Slavery ..... might be shite, but it's getting better. These days a much higher percentage of the population live above the poverty live than ever before.

That's progress whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Someone has to be first. If it works, do you not think the entire human race would follow?

Thing is, there's no getting there first. Waiting to take that finally step, maybe, but nobody is actually there (as in at the goal) yet. The entire human race won't follow, it'll advance all at once.

I'd say they're not ready .......... (chopped for brevity) ...... now there's an easy challenge for the pollies (that is their job isn't it?)

I'd say you're probably ahead of most, but not standing on the final step. Probably a couple of generations (Economics wise) ahead of your time. Chances are you won't be alive to see the day that you're waiting for arrive. You definitely won't be around to see the day it fails and we move on to the next step after that.

Yeah I understood what you meant. Yet I see them as a string of catastrophic strategy failures (in no particular order) that have led us to the point we are at today. And given we've made huge strides forwards in terms of technology and understanding the world around us, socially we've taken giant strides backwards because of those theories.

My point still stands. All current and near future (well the next thousand years or so I guess) economic theories can and will fail. We have to go from one to another, seeing each through until they fail, progressing one step at a time. Taking a giant leap from where we are now to economic and social nirvana isn't possible. As a whole, the human race can't do that.

(might have to up the word limit on posts soon ......)

[mashman]

Other countries are getting there. Different countries advance at different rates, but they are all moving away from subsistence living etc. Not at a rate that would please the vast majority of people, but it is happening.

It's an advancement over Tribalism, Cannibalism, Feudalism, Slavery ..... might be shite, but it's getting better. These days a much higher percentage of the population live above the poverty live than ever before.

That's progress whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

That is a fair point, but it's only (yes i'm dissapointed ) progress in so much as others are being afforded the same rights as those that have already had those rights for countless decades/millenia before them... you forgot about the vote for women, sexist pig ...

Thing is, there's no getting there first. Waiting to take that finally step, maybe, but nobody is actually there (as in at the goal) yet. The entire human race won't follow, it'll advance all at once.

I disagree... We make laws based on the success of laws in other countries irrespective of the known social consequences ... we've taken cultures from other countries and employed them across the globe (the french don't like that) etc... The US and USSR where the first in space and other countries have come on line in that respect too... someone has to be first or it'll never happen... even more so when it comes to economic policy... I doubt a global disaster (let alone the one we're currently experiencing ) will change the way our economy works. Primarily as the mass deaths will create openings in the job market for when things get back to "normal". Brutal as it sounds, "they" only see us as resources, and we are replaceable. Someone will have to go first. And it is doable even in this economy. Tis just logistics, knowledge and mental state .

I'd say you're probably ahead of most, but not standing on the final step. Probably a couple of generations (Economics wise) ahead of your time. Chances are you won't be alive to see the day that you're waiting for arrive. You definitely won't be around to see the day it fails and we move on to the next step after that.

From an understanding point of view maybe, but that's only because very few have worked it out for themselves... heh with my eating habits, every extra day is a pleasant surprise . I might be around if it all comes to an end in 2012 , but that is still an awful long way away .

My point still stands. All current and near future (well the next thousand years or so I guess) economic theories can and will fail. We have to go from one to another, seeing each through until they fail, progressing one step at a time. Taking a giant leap from where we are now to economic and social nirvana isn't possible. As a whole, the human race can't do that.

It does and I agree given our current progress and strategy. If the strategy dictates the rate of progress, then change the strategy to one that changes almost everything over night. What seems impossible is completely achievable and in under a generation After all, if you can think it, it's possible. No need to baby step, very few things would change in the short term (money would be completely virtual for global market purposes). Hence I think that the giant leap is completely possible, and I believe it could be accomplished and implemented within approx 2 years of sitting down to plan it. After all, if it takes to 2 years before you switch it on, how many people in the country won't know its coming? The rest of the world would come on board within 5 years and all in under a single generation. I can see it, I just can't affect it ... HAIL ME waaaaaaaa hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

(might have to up the word limit on posts soon ......)

Don't dooooo eeeeeet...

[mashman]

I would love to be able to look though those rose colored glasses you have on.

All I see is people wanting what I have worked hard for and expect to do nothing for it or someone saying i should share it around.

Try using that imagination thing, it's really quite a remarkable gismo... whenever it finds a problem, it generally finds a solution too ... and if I can grasp the concept, fumb duck that I am, what's wrong with the rest of ya

... me me me ... the troll is strong with this one... you're paranoid.

[Pussy]

Pfffft!

Let them eat cake.

[Mental Trousers]

I disagree... We make laws based on the success of laws in other countries irrespective of the known social consequences ... we've taken cultures from other countries and employed them across the globe (the french don't like that) etc... The US and USSR where the first in space and other countries have come on line in that respect too... someone has to be first or it'll never happen... even more so when it comes to economic policy... I doubt a global disaster (let alone the one we're currently experiencing ) will change the way our economy works. Primarily as the mass deaths will create openings in the job market for when things get back to "normal". Brutal as it sounds, "they" only see us as resources, and we are replaceable. Someone will have to go first. And it is doable even in this economy. Tis just logistics, knowledge and mental state .

What I think of as the end point is only possible if everyone gets there together. It's possible to reach the last step first, but then you have to sit around and wait for everyone else to catch up. When, finally, everyone has then the entire race moves forward.

Of course, if we end up with different strains of Human then each ends up taking their own path. But each group takes the last step collectively, ie not all of the groups recombine. A bit esoteric but ....

Basically for me, what you think of as Nirvana (if I can call it that, what do you call it??) is one of the steps, not the goal.

... heh with my eating habits, every extra day is a pleasant surprise . I might be around if it all comes to an end in 2012 , but that is still an awful long way away .

You and me both.

It does and I agree given our current progress and strategy. If the strategy dictates the rate of progress, then change the strategy to one that changes almost everything over night. What seems impossible is completely achievable and in under a generation After all, if you can think it, it's possible. No need to baby step, very few things would change in the short term (money would be completely virtual for global market purposes). Hence I think that the giant leap is completely possible, and I believe it could be accomplished and implemented within approx 2 years of sitting down to plan it. After all, if it takes to 2 years before you switch it on, how many people in the country won't know its coming? The rest of the world would come on board within 5 years and all in under a single generation. I can see it, I just can't affect it ... HAIL ME waaaaaaaa hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa

One thing that we learn from history is that large scale change is usually catastrophic, if not right away then later on. Maybe not for those instigating and implementing the change (think British/French/Dutch etc Colonies), but almost definitely for others caught up in those changes.

Communism didn't work, neither did Fascism and few others. They were big changes where power is centralized and everybody is equal. Mainly because people don't want to be equal and when you centralize power it just makes it easier for a small group to manipulate everything. So taking a big leap away from what we have now to what you see as the end point won't work. Until the term power is no longer relevant it has to be baby steps.

People don't react well to change either. Change means that things people are comfortable with are no longer the things they're comfortable with, they're something else.

[oneofsix]

Mainly because people don't want to be equal and when you centralize power it just makes it easier for a small group to manipulate everything.



People don't react well to change either. Change means that things people are comfortable with are no longer the things they're comfortable with, they're something else.

people want to be equal, they don't want to be the same. Everyone wants to feel there is something special about them that sets them apart but that doesn't mean they are not equal it means not the same, not a clone or a number.

People will change if they can see the +ve in it but because we all value different things change is difficult. Crisis often drives change, the climate change could cause a big change in society as it has in the past.