Rodney Hide resigns

[Ocean1]

It's not so much fear of the unknown, more the fear of losing what they have.

Is true, people work harder to avoid losing something than they do for the possibility of gaining something. Any casino manager will tell you people take more risks with house money, the deeper into their own reserves they get the more conservative they behave.

[mashman]

When we finally get off this planet and interplanetary (or interstellar) travel is common place people born and raised their entire lives off planet will evolve along a totally different path to those that live at the bottom of a gravity well. In very low or zero gravity muscle mass is no longer needed. Large bones are no longer needed to support muscle. Weight is a hindrance and costs fuel. Joints such as elbows and knees are easily damaged etc. Imagine a race of extremely skinny people with arms and legs that look more like tentacles.

There are plenty of interesting things happening inside my head, not just economics

hell yeah. I just hope when I'm shaking the tentacle as a greeting it isn't a reproductive organ... evil aliens

Doesn't everyone

I hope to be banging away when my time cums hahaha

heh, don't you mean when your end cums

It's not so much fear of the unknown, more the fear of losing what they have. When people are uncomfortable or scared, they turn to the things they know and derive safety and comfort from. Big changes such as those you think are needed means that everyone has to give up their blanky or night light etc.

True. But by the time those changes are about to come into force, I would imagine that they would have gotten over the fear of losing everything, let alone anything.

oh and whilst yer extending the character limit, can you add a link to grow the reply to thread box to double its height .

[Mental Trousers]

hell yeah. I just hope when I'm shaking the tentacle as a greeting it isn't a reproductive organ... evil aliens

I just hope they don't evolve so that bodily gasses double as direction thrusters

oh and whilst yer extending the character limit, can you add a link to grow the reply to thread box to double its height .

Use Chrome or find the addon for Firefox.

[mashman]

I just hope they don't evolve so that bodily gasses double as direction thrusters

Burping and farting at the same time could make for an interesting experience... your rotation would let you know which one was more powerful though

Use Chrome or find the addon for Firefox.

lazy cnut

[Mental Trousers]

True mate. But that's, as you say, small groups making the decision. What we're talking about has to be accepted by everyone in the country, and to a certain extent the world, well the world leaders at least. It should be our business how our country runs, in the context of "Life Jim". To that end I doubt there'd be that many problems.

As you say, we're not all born equal and that should be celebrated, not derided. Tis one of the things that really irks me about the way we live today. Snotty nosed twats looking down on people, and vice versa (yes I am guilty of those things too, although I truly wish I wasn't). What a waste I'm fed up with baby steps, it's insulting to the human race when I know how much more capable we are. Fuck there's some really smart people out there. Pooling those skills for "us" and not the money whores can only be a good thing?

The problem with getting to the point you're aiming for is a number of instincts and behaviours have to be breed out of the Human race in order to get there. For instance, focusing on the herd and less reliance on the self and the family is needed. Far more altruistic personality types are required. A lot more trust in others as well. Other changes too.

Our instincts are the reason we won't get to the point you think we should be at for a long, long time.

[mashman]

The problem with getting to the point you're aiming for is a number of instincts and behaviours have to be breed out of the Human race in order to get there. For instance, focusing on the herd and less reliance on the self and the family is needed. Far more altruistic personality types are required. A lot more trust in others as well. Other changes too.

Our instincts are the reason we won't get to the point you think we should be at for a long, long time.

The problem is that noone of any influence will be brave enough to champion the idea, potentially through fear of derision (i know that one inside out and i'd rather it isn't bred out, it has its use ). How do you mean breed out? Educated out? Coz education is key. But i'd argue that focussing on the herd would be the wrong thing to do and I would hope that the focus of people would be on self, family and friends. Otherwise we may as well just stay as paid drones . +1 on the Trust issue, coz that's what impedes the altruistic side of our nature init? Removing the financial system would go a long way to removing the trust issues I would say?

Poppycock ... I wouldn't say this was an instinct type situation. Primarily as you'd get to think it for a few years and adjust before the change comes into effect. It's not just thrown upon you and you have to live with it, like legislation that's passed under urgency to open up NZ to the "outsiders" because that's all they can think of to generate revenue type thing. But yeah, the initial "switch off" instinct (that we're so adept at) when you first here, "hey we could live so much more cleverer", is gonna be hard to break. Hence the need for a person of "influence" to raise the issue. Get people talking about it, discussing the pros and cons etc... a televised Jacques Fresco v John Key debate on the merits of Resource Based Economy v Capitalism would be an interesting watch

[BoristheBiter]

Get people talking about it, discussing the pros and cons etc... a televised Jacques Fresco v John Key debate on the merits of Resource Based Economy v Capitalism would be an interesting watch

I see where you are coming from but it will take a massive shift in the mindset needed for this change in thinking.
It will take most of the good ideas out of most form of structure (tribalism, feudalism etc) without brining the bad along as well and the only way i can see this happening is if there is a massive world wide event (well it is nearly 2012) but even then it will resort to survival of the fittest.

There is such a massive gap in the state of enlightenment between the peoples of this earth that I could never really imagine this happening.

At the end of the day we are just animals the have used the use of tools to make sure our genepool stays strongest.

[Mental Trousers]

The problem is that noone of any influence will be brave enough to champion the idea, potentially through fear of derision (i know that one inside out and i'd rather it isn't bred out, it has its use ).

You seriously underestimate what it takes to move an entire society to make the sort of changes you're talking of. While I think the system you're aiming for is achievable (one day) I think you're permanently looking through those rose coloured glasses as to how to achieve it. I'm sure it'll happen, but that's a hell of a long way off in our distant future.

How do you mean breed out? Educated out? Coz education is key. But i'd argue that focussing on the herd would be the wrong thing to do and I would hope that the focus of people would be on self, family and friends. Otherwise we may as well just stay as paid drones . +1 on the Trust issue, coz that's what impedes the altruistic side of our nature init? Removing the financial system would go a long way to removing the trust issues I would say?

Poppycock ... I wouldn't say this was an instinct type situation. Primarily as you'd get to think it for a few years and adjust before the change comes into effect. It's not just thrown upon you and you have to live with it, like legislation that's passed under urgency to open up NZ to the "outsiders" because that's all they can think of to generate revenue type thing. But yeah, the initial "switch off" instinct (that we're so adept at) when you first here, "hey we could live so much more cleverer", is gonna be hard to break. Hence the need for a person of "influence" to raise the issue. Get people talking about it, discussing the pros and cons etc... a televised Jacques Fresco v John Key debate on the merits of Resource Based Economy v Capitalism would be an interesting watch

Bred as in evolution. We are the way we are because instincts for family, self preservation and accumulation were necessary for survival. We haven't evolved past those yet and we have to if the system you're thinking of is to have any chance to work. You can't change thousands of years of evolving in a few years of listening to a couple of people talking about things. If it was that easy our society would be a hell of a lot different than it is now.

[mashman]

I see where you are coming from but it will take a massive shift in the mindset needed for this change in thinking.
It will take most of the good ideas out of most form of structure (tribalism, feudalism etc) without brining the bad along as well and the only way i can see this happening is if there is a massive world wide event (well it is nearly 2012) but even then it will resort to survival of the fittest.

There is such a massive gap in the state of enlightenment between the peoples of this earth that I could never really imagine this happening.

At the end of the day we are just animals the have used the use of tools to make sure our genepool stays strongest.

What's so difficult about changing your mindset? You want to or you don't. Decision made. Isn't that how it works?
I wouldn't take any of the best bits from any structure. I'd encourage the decision makers to design the new "system" from the bottom up and mitigating as you hit problems. Wether there are similarities to older systems or not should only be by coincidence, not design.
I think we'd go back to the same system. After all, those in "power" have bunkers to survive in and when they come out of those bunkers they will go back to business as usual. To that end also, i'd rather society was already prepared for a disaster, and not reacting to it the way we do. The Chch situation, it's politics and beaurocracy, galls me to the core. We should already be building by now (we can build or we can't, what are they waiting for... oh yeah, figuring out how to best spend the money ). Chch should be rebuilt within 5 years, houses first (tinted specs or not).

, no there isn't. The state of enlightenment is just a statement or two away imho, you get it, or don't. After all, the people follow the lead as sheep in the current system, why wouldn't the same stand for the implementation of a different system? Isn't that how it's always happened?

no we're not. The genepool thing is a misnomer to a certain degree imho. You could be an exceptional person up to the age of 18, gene tweaking your population to the extent that Hitler would be proud, then fall off your bike and be brain damaged for the rest of your natural. Yer genes aren't gonna help you then. Pointless.

[mashman]

You seriously underestimate what it takes to move an entire society to make the sort of changes you're talking of. While I think the system you're aiming for is achievable (one day) I think you're permanently looking through those rose coloured glasses as to how to achieve it. I'm sure it'll happen, but that's a hell of a long way off in our distant future.

Bred as in evolution. We are the way we are because instincts for family, self preservation and accumulation were necessary for survival. We haven't evolved past those yet and we have to if the system you're thinking of is to have any chance to work. You can't change thousands of years of evolving in a few years of listening to a couple of people talking about things. If it was that easy our society would be a hell of a lot different than it is now.

By the sounds of it you're overstimating how hard it will be. As mentioned to BTB above, probably 99% of us are sheep wether we like it ot not. If those in power decided that they were going to switch to a Resource Based Economy within 2 years, what would the sheeple do about it? Nothing, we'd accept the wisdom and just take it (look at the shit we're taking now). I use the term sheeple, not in a derogatory way, but essentially that's what we are when it comes to staying within the confines of the system. A group of people make the rules, we fit our lives around them and live as best we can. What has been so different under any of the other systems we've already tried?

Anyhoo, my rose tinted specs are nothing more than having my eyes open to the FACT that human beings, when armed with the knowledge, can achieve anything they choose to. We have proven this over and over and over again, just take a look around . Moving to a new system is just an exercise in logistics for those that are involved in it's design... which to be honest would be just about everyone in the country to a certain degree. I'd dedicate a Q+A style TV channel to it and have an FAQ site with forum where questions could be asked and answered.

It won't happen if we keep procrastinating. I hear you and BTB, Oh it's possible, but improbable at the moment . That does not compute (is it's possible, it's possible any time ). What i'm "tabling" is not a new theory. It has been around for millenia. Yet we are still going in completely the opposite direction. Perhaps a natural disaster will cull the heard for us. But if TPTB survive that cull, it'll be business as usual when they come out from their bunkers. They ain't gonna come out with flowers in their hair and preaching a new way of life are they?

Tis only a matter of will and logistics ... evolution is not playing a part here. Would living in such a new style of society really change you that much? Do you think you would have evolved "over night"? Or would you have just changed your mind and accepted what TPTB had decided?

2 years bang to boom.

We have to go from where we are today to where we want to go without fucking NZ over socially or financially. The timetable is 2 years what needs to be done? Pick holes all you like, it's just the rose tinted specs talking.

1. Talk to the country in terms of what we're going for. (someone may alert us to what we've missed)
2. Let the world leaders know what we're gonna do.
2. Create a department to look after trading (that includes financial affairs... for now ).
3. Identify and Quantify critical areas, Food, Water, Power, Transport, Sewerage, Waste Disposal, Emergency Services, Medical Research (probably others, but not that many more?).
4. Identify key jobs for critical areas.
5. Design a new Education system to cater for the key jobs for critical and whatever anyone fancies doing (potentially all on the job training).
6. Repeat step 2.
7. Implement.

Done. Did i miss anything?

We already have laws and immigration policies etc... Society is currently functioning isn't it?

Simplistic and without the i's dotted and t's crossed, but why not?

By all means tell me I'm dreaming, but don't use the public and their cognitive ability as an excuse, people aren't THAT stupid. If they understand and accept stage 1, then it's game on. You already admit it can be done, but can't see it happening. If you offer it as a serious alternative to the country, do you think they'd say no? And if they say yes we'll have it... improbably just became 2 years and counting . tinted specs or not, that would be the reality.

Et voila "Life Jim".

[BoristheBiter]

By the sounds of it you're overstimating how hard it will be. As mentioned to BTB above, probably 99% of us are sheep wether we like it ot not. If those in power decided that they were going to switch to a Resource Based Economy within 2 years, what would the sheeple do about it? Nothing, we'd accept the wisdom and just take it (look at the shit we're taking now). I use the term sheeple, not in a derogatory way, but essentially that's what we are when it comes to staying within the confines of the system. A group of people make the rules, we fit our lives around them and live as best we can. What has been so different under any of the other systems we've already tried?

Anyhoo, my rose tinted specs are nothing more than having my eyes open to the FACT that human beings, when armed with the knowledge, can achieve anything they choose to. We have proven this over and over and over again, just take a look around . Moving to a new system is just an exercise in logistics for those that are involved in it's design... which to be honest would be just about everyone in the country to a certain degree. I'd dedicate a Q+A style TV channel to it and have an FAQ site with forum where questions could be asked and answered.

It won't happen if we keep procrastinating. I hear you and BTB, Oh it's possible, but improbable at the moment . That does not compute (is it's possible, it's possible any time ). What i'm "tabling" is not a new theory. It has been around for millenia. Yet we are still going in completely the opposite direction. Perhaps a natural disaster will cull the heard for us. But if TPTB survive that cull, it'll be business as usual when they come out from their bunkers. They ain't gonna come out with flowers in their hair and preaching a new way of life are they?

Tis only a matter of will and logistics ... evolution is not playing a part here. Would living in such a new style of society really change you that much? Do you think you would have evolved "over night"? Or would you have just changed your mind and accepted what TPTB had decided?

2 years bang to boom.

We have to go from where we are today to where we want to go without fucking NZ over socially or financially. The timetable is 2 years what needs to be done? Pick holes all you like, it's just the rose tinted specs talking.

1. Talk to the country in terms of what we're going for. (someone may alert us to what we've missed)
2. Let the world leaders know what we're gonna do.
2. Create a department to look after trading (that includes financial affairs... for now ).
3. Identify and Quantify critical areas, Food, Water, Power, Transport, Sewerage, Waste Disposal, Emergency Services, Medical Research (probably others, but not that many more?).
4. Identify key jobs for critical areas.
5. Design a new Education system to cater for the key jobs for critical and whatever anyone fancies doing (potentially all on the job training).
6. Repeat step 2.
7. Implement.

Done. Did i miss anything?

We already have laws and immigration policies etc... Society is currently functioning isn't it?

Simplistic and without the i's dotted and t's crossed, but why not?

By all means tell me I'm dreaming, but don't use the public and their cognitive ability as an excuse, people aren't THAT stupid. If they understand and accept stage 1, then it's game on. You already admit it can be done, but can't see it happening. If you offer it as a serious alternative to the country, do you think they'd say no? And if they say yes we'll have it... improbably just became 2 years and counting . tinted specs or not, that would be the reality.

Et voila "Life Jim".

I don't think you are dreaming I just think you are totally wrong and are looking at this way to simplistically.

For the human race to change all must change and think the same, And in who's mind is that a good idea? we can't even decide to wave or not to wave.

And what do you do with the ones that don't want to work, those that are too old, or those that are injured?

[mashman]

I don't think you are dreaming I just think you are totally wrong and are looking at this way to simplistically.

For the human race to change all must change and think the same, And in who's mind is that a good idea? we can't even decide to wave or not to wave.

And what do you do with the ones that don't want to work, those that are too old, or those that are injured?

Awwww ta ... Fair point, but can you be more specific than just "totally wrong"?

That I can't agree with. We don't think the same at the moment and society functions , irrespective of the underlying system. To that end I wouldn't expect people to change just because the underlying system does, just accept what system is in place and try to live by its rules, exactly the same way we do at the moment.

Those who don't want to work, the old etc... what do we do with them at the moment? Why is that going to change. The idea would be that working is a social requirement and not a precursor to having enough money to live on. There will be those that see the value in it and those who sit at home and watch TV... like I say, why does life have to be so different under a Resource Based Economy? As far as i'm concernend, as a country, we'd be working smarter and everyone would be better off. What they choose to do is up to them. But if the social responsibility isn't respected, then there's no food, no water, no emergency services etc... hence there'd be no point, we may as well stick with the money oriented system. Only way to find out is to ask people.

Would you do your bit? I'd retrain to be a sewer rat if that's what was required. The benefits of working in a society where I volunteer to work, by far outweigh the social problems where someone grudgingly does it for money, or doesn't do it at all and finds less social ways of making their living.

[Mental Trousers]

Sorry, but unlike Boris I think you are dreaming mashman. At least partly.

Changes in society are not easy to implement. It runs against human instinct to simply drop everything to take up something else. We always work from a base that's known and solid and then take a step, knowing we still have one foot firmly planted on firm ground. Those instincts aren't something that you can educate away in a couple of years.

If you really want people to consider what you're talking about a lot more thought is required about how to get there. Ignoring human nature and thinking it can be overruled by knowledge and education is what'll stop the acceptance of what you're thinking. I reckon the majority of people are certainly able to see what you're talking about has definite advantages and could work. Unfortunately, getting there is the big problem and the route you suggest is completely unrealistic, fanciful and naive (don't take the use of naive etc as an attack btw).

[BoristheBiter]

Awwww ta ... Fair point, but can you be more specific than just "totally wrong"?

That I can't agree with. We don't think the same at the moment and society functions , irrespective of the underlying system. To that end I wouldn't expect people to change just because the underlying system does, just accept what system is in place and try to live by its rules, exactly the same way we do at the moment.

Those who don't want to work, the old etc... what do we do with them at the moment? Why is that going to change. The idea would be that working is a social requirement and not a precursor to having enough money to live on. There will be those that see the value in it and those who sit at home and watch TV... like I say, why does life have to be so different under a Resource Based Economy? As far as i'm concernend, as a country, we'd be working smarter and everyone would be better off. What they choose to do is up to them. But if the social responsibility isn't respected, then there's no food, no water, no emergency services etc... hence there'd be no point, we may as well stick with the money oriented system. Only way to find out is to ask people.

Would you do your bit? I'd retrain to be a sewer rat if that's what was required. The benefits of working in a society where I volunteer to work, by far outweigh the social problems where someone grudgingly does it for money, or doesn't do it at all and finds less social ways of making their living.

I would do my bit, but if someone doesn't work the whole system will fall down, sounds very close to what we have now.

What needs to change is just remove all benefits, from everyone so if you don't work your family has to look after you, or pay someone too.

GOOG GOD I'VE TURNED INTO DON BRASH

[mashman]

Sorry, but unlike Boris I think you are dreaming mashman. At least partly.

Changes in society are not easy to implement. It runs against human instinct to simply drop everything to take up something else. We always work from a base that's known and solid and then take a step, knowing we still have one foot firmly planted on firm ground. Those instincts aren't something that you can educate away in a couple of years.

No apologies necessary , I fully understand how it sounds, I have been in your "skeptical" position . Now i'm not.

Tell those who have been through war that change isn't easy to implement. That's not a dramatic statement, it's a serious suggestion and I bet the answer you get back is, we never had a choice and just had to get on with it. Yes that's how we currently live and react to changes in our environment, we suck it up and make the best with what we have. It's slow and it's fucking things up much quicker than the changes to make things better are being rung in. It's a strategy that doesn't work and that is not the limits of human thought and capability, not even close. The instincts aren't what need to change. The system which propogates them is, the system people react to. The rest won't matter as it will be educated out, it will be life as normal, idiots posting on forums with wacky inconceivable ideas, people murdering people etc... but not for money and with things being built to last, toys included .

If you really want people to consider what you're talking about a lot more thought is required about how to get there. Ignoring human nature and thinking it can be overruled by knowledge and education is what'll stop the acceptance of what you're thinking. I reckon the majority of people are certainly able to see what you're talking about has definite advantages and could work. Unfortunately, getting there is the big problem and the route you suggest is completely unrealistic, fanciful and naive (don't take the use of naive etc as an attack btw).

Each of those numbered points would have to be exploded, I have no doubt about that (and I have addressed them, in some detail, with myself and every issue is a state of mind and acceptance). I understand that it seems like an utterly inconceivable plan to change how a country runs in such a short space of time. We're not just talking about a couple of people off a forum tabling the idea and doing all the planning. There are some very smart groups people out there that could knock this kinda stuff out of the park in a matter of months. After all, they can come up with taxation policies, ipods, robotics, innovations the likes of which people used to laugh at as being possible etc... I think you sell the human race short.

I'd like to think that i'm not ignoring human nature at all, more bringing out the best in it perhaps. Human nature is to follow. It is only the chosen system that we HAVE to live under that needs to change. Why not make it a "smart" one? As mentioned in the last post, most people will choose the path of less resistance, it sounds good, what the fuck, let's give it a whirl, it can't be any worse than what we already have (isn't that called the swing vote?). If TPTB decided to take the country forwards under a Resource Based Economy system then, like those who have just been through a war, the population will follow because they have no choice... some without caring or fear. It's what currently happens. We see and react to change every day... granted some cope better with change than others, on an individual basis, but not if everyone is in the same boat. Some more concerned folk, such as yourself and BTB will raise their concerns and may never get past the fact that it just can't be done, but you would probably accept it if was the wisdom of the smart people wouldn't you? (primarily because you won't have any choice if the implemented it anyway.)

You're hiding behind what you perceive to be human nature, as I am, but I think you're selling human nature short by a massive margin. If the cost v benefits analysis supports the change, why wouldn't people go along with it? Especially if it has come from a position of respect, like from a Politician ... they do what suits them anyway and we ALWAYS suck up the changes.

heh, I am naive and make no bones about it. Getting there could be as simple as the steps outlined above. What's missing other than a full blown explanation? I'm pretty sure even you can fill in most of the gaps ... K.I.S.S