Claiming Rule Teams in MotoGP 2012

[slowpoke]

http://www.nzsbk.com/2011/05/motogp-...ations-of.html

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/May/110504fim.htm

I wonder how many races it'll take for a GSXR based CRT bike/team to pants the Factory Suzuki GSVR..........

[Crasherfromwayback]

http://www.nzsbk.com/2011/05/motogp-...ations-of.html

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/May/110504fim.htm

I wonder how many races it'll take for a GSXR based CRT bike/team to pants the Factory Suzuki GSVR..........

Might finally give Suzuki reason enough to can the V Four they've never been able to get working as well as the others!

[slowpoke]

Might finally give Suzuki reason enough to can the V Four they've never been able to get working as well as the others!

Might give them enough reason to say "Fuck this for a game of soldiers...!" and pack up their MotoGP effort all together, leaving it to the privateer CRT's.

Haslam, Rea, Checa, Biaggi, Melandri, Hopkins etc on a Suter framed GSXR/CBR/S1000R/RSV4 would be champing at the bit to kick some sand in MotoGP's face.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Haslam, Rea, Checa, Biaggi, Melandri, Hopkins etc on a Suter framed GSXR/CBR/S1000R/RSV4 would be champing at the bit to kick some sand in MotoGP's face.

Dunno 'bout that. Those GP Aliens are fucking freaks.

[gixerracer]

Dunno 'bout that. Those GP Aliens are fucking freaks.

Want matter a crap what they do to the rules the factory teams will never get beat in the series and the creame will rise to the top as it allways does regardless of rule changes

[Crasherfromwayback]

Want matter a crap what they do to the rules the factory teams will never get beat in the series and the creame will rise to the top as it allways does regardless of rule changes

Agree with you 100% there!

[Mental Trousers]

I like the way it's looking.

The factory teams get to run either an 800cc engine with the only rule being 21 litres of fuel and 6 engines. OR they run the same as the privateer teams; a 1000cc engine limited to 81mm bore (and therefore a maximum stroke which also limits maximum revs and consequently maximum air flow and therefore power), 24 litres of fuel and 12 engines.

Basically they're limiting the power output of the 2 different engine specs so that they're similar-ish. I still think the 800cc engines will have the advantage as they don't have any restrictions as to what they can do other than the capacity and 6 engines for the season.

I'd be surprised if Honda didn't stick with 800cc prototype engines just to show everyone they're the shit at engine building. Although it would be very tempting for them to be the first 1000cc engine maker to win a title.

Yamaha may well go to 1000cc to try a different route to getting on a par powerwise.

Ducati look set to stick with the 800cc engine in the GP12 that they're testing right now. It'll be their best chance of winning and they really want to with Rossi on board.

Suzuki are a bit of a mystery. The V4 is a solid engine (despite what crasher says) and isn't the cause of their problems in the past few years. It's the chassis that's caused their headaches. It takes so long to get heat into the tyres that they're way behind everyone else by the time the bike is able to lap at the same speeds as everyone else. So maybe they'll look to stick their engine in an aftermarket chassis. A Suzuki V4 powered Moriwaki sounds a bit bloody tasty.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'd be surprised if Honda didn't stick with 800cc prototype engines just to show everyone they're the shit at engine building. Although it would be very tempting for them to be the first 1000cc engine maker to win a title.

Yamaha may well go to 1000cc to try a different route to getting on a par powerwise.

Ducati look set to stick with the 800cc engine in the GP12 that they're testing right now. It'll be their best chance of winning and they really want to with Rossi on board.

Suzuki are a bit of a mystery. The V4 is a solid engine (despite what crasher says) and isn't the cause of their problems in the past few years. It's the chassis that's caused their headaches. It takes so long to get heat into the tyres that they're way behind everyone else by the time the bike is able to lap at the same speeds as everyone else. So maybe they'll look to stick their engine in an aftermarket chassis. A Suzuki V4 powered Moriwaki sounds a bit bloody tasty.

Ain't no way Honda will stick with 800cc.

Ducati are already testing a much bigger engine. Ain't no way they'll stick with 800cc either!

Suzuki? Well I never siad it was because it was a v-four that it's why they can't make it work. Their electronics are years behind the other teams, and they refuse to change to what everyone else is using. Their budget is waaaaaay smaller than everyone elses, and that's crippling them more than anything else. But I thinkit'd be way easier for them to hind behind a 'privateer' banner, and try to buil an across the frame gp bike based on a high revving GSXR1000 engine than it is to carry on with the abortion that is the GSVR.

[lostinflyz]

I like the way it's looking.

The factory teams get to run either an 800cc engine with the only rule being 21 litres of fuel and 6 engines. OR they run the same as the privateer teams; a 1000cc engine limited to 81mm bore (and therefore a maximum stroke which also limits maximum revs and consequently maximum air flow and therefore power), 24 litres of fuel and 12 engines.

Basically they're limiting the power output of the 2 different engine specs so that they're similar-ish. I still think the 800cc engines will have the advantage as they don't have any restrictions as to what they can do other than the capacity and 6 engines for the season.

I'd be surprised if Honda didn't stick with 800cc prototype engines just to show everyone they're the shit at engine building. Although it would be very tempting for them to be the first 1000cc engine maker to win a title.

Yamaha may well go to 1000cc to try a different route to getting on a par powerwise.

Ducati look set to stick with the 800cc engine in the GP12 that they're testing right now. It'll be their best chance of winning and they really want to with Rossi on board.

Suzuki are a bit of a mystery. The V4 is a solid engine (despite what crasher says) and isn't the cause of their problems in the past few years. It's the chassis that's caused their headaches. It takes so long to get heat into the tyres that they're way behind everyone else by the time the bike is able to lap at the same speeds as everyone else. So maybe they'll look to stick their engine in an aftermarket chassis. A Suzuki V4 powered Moriwaki sounds a bit bloody tasty.

not quite.

- Current factory teams cannot go to the CRT rules. they can go to 1000CC but only 6 motors and 21 litres. I beleive all engines have a 81mm bore restriction. The idea is CRT bikes are cheaper to run as the engines are far less stressed and prodn based. If you make your own motor then you become a factory. its really as clear as mud

- Honda and duke and def going 1000cc (or close to it, some talk of a duc 900-930)

Moriwaki and honda are usually very closely linked so i'd be surprised by any suzuki tie up. No idea what suzuki will do hopefully fuck off or harden up. either way not fussed.

What i wonder is if any factory will design one or two or their motors to be stroker's. Run a 900cc due to the fuel requirements, but there must be some tracks where fuel is less of an issue so lengthen the stroke and gain an extra 20 puppy dogs or so........

[Mental Trousers]

- Current factory teams cannot go to the CRT rules. they can go to 1000CC but only 6 motors and 21 litres. I beleive all engines have a 81mm bore restriction. The idea is CRT bikes are cheaper to run as the engines are far less stressed and prodn based. If you make your own motor then you become a factory. its really as clear as mud

From what I've read the 800cc rules are to stay exactly the same. The Factories (via MSMA) wanted to continue with what they've got because they want to get more value from the huge investments they've made in the 800's. So the rules for 1000cc's were drawn up to be able to compete with the current bikes.

It'll be a farce (keeping the 800 rules) if everyone jumps to the 1000cc rules though.

What i wonder is if any factory will design one or two or their motors to be stroker's. Run a 900cc due to the fuel requirements, but there must be some tracks where fuel is less of an issue so lengthen the stroke and gain an extra 20 puppy dogs or so........

It looks like they will run either an 800cc or a 1000cc because the rules don't appear to give any advantage to an engine around 900cc. It could be a disadvantage because they don't have the freedoms that the 800's do and have to stick to the same rules for the 1000's. If they have problems with fuel consumption then similar sort of measures to now would be better - start with a decent whack of grunt and lean it out if fuel consumption becomes an issue towards the end of the race.

[lostinflyz]

From what I've read the 800cc rules are to stay exactly the same. The Factories (via MSMA) wanted to continue with what they've got because they want to get more value from the huge investments they've made in the 800's. So the rules for 1000cc's were drawn up to be able to compete with the current bikes.

It'll be a farce (keeping the 800 rules) if everyone jumps to the 1000cc rules though.



It looks like they will run either an 800cc or a 1000cc because the rules don't appear to give any advantage to an engine around 900cc. It could be a disadvantage because they don't have the freedoms that the 800's do and have to stick to the same rules for the 1000's. If they have problems with fuel consumption then similar sort of measures to now would be better - start with a decent whack of grunt and lean it out if fuel consumption becomes an issue towards the end of the race.

Ripped from the FIM press release

Technical Regulations

2.2 Classes

2.2.1 The following classes will be accommodated, which will be designated by engine parameters:

[…]

MotoGP: Up to 1'000cc – maximum four cylinders, maximum cylinder bore 81mm.

Four stroke motorcycles participating in the MotoGP class must be prototypes. Those that are not entered by a member of MSMA must be approved for participation by the Grand Prix Commission, and teams using such motorcycles may ask the Grand Prix Commission (hereinafter GPC) for the "Claiming Rule Team" (hereinafter CRT) status by December 31st of the year before the season they intend to race.

The GPC will reply to any CRT status requests within one month of receiving the official request. Approval of CRT status is subject to unanimity among all the members of the GPC, and CRT status is given only for one year at a time. The CRT status is approved by unanimous decision of the GPC in order to ensure fair competition, and based on the same consideration it can be withdrawn at any time by a majority decision of the GPC members. In case of CRT status withdrawal the GPC will inform the team at least one race in advance of CRT status being withdrawn.

The CRT status affects the requirements of engine durability (Article 2.3.7 FIM Grand Prix Regulations) and fuel tank capacity (Article 2.6.5).

CRT's are subject to the Claiming Rule (Article 2.2.2) and must not represent any MSMA manufacturer, as defined solely by a GPC majority decision.

2.2.2 Claiming Rule:

MSMA manufacturers have the right to purchase the engine of a motorcycle entered by a CRT immediately after a race, for a fixed price of:

* 20,000€ (twenty thousands Euros) including gearbox/transmission, or
* 15,000€ (fifteen thousands Euros) without gearbox/transmission.

A maximum of four engine claims can be made against one CRT in any one racing season. An MSMA manufacturer may not claim more than one engine per year from the same CRT (i.e. a different claimant for every claimed engine of the same CRT).

To lodge a claim under the Claiming Rule, an MSMA manufacturer must inform Race Direction in writing after the start of the race. In the case of more than one claim lodged against the same team, the claim lodged first will be recognised, and other claims dismissed. Provided that the relevant CRT has not already been subjected to the Claiming Rule four times that season, Race Direction will request the Technical Director to securely identify the used engine immediately after the race. The CRT must make that engine available at Technical Control within two hours after the identification, to be handed over to the successful claimant by the Technical Director. Race Direction will inform IRTA of the successful claim, and IRTA will ensure payment and receipt of the claiming fees between the two involved Teams.

2.3.7 Engine Durability

In the MotoGP class the number of engines available for use by each rider is limited to 6 engines per permanent contracted rider for all the scheduled races of the season. The following exceptions will apply:

Permanent contracted riders entered by an MSMA member participating in MotoGP for the first time since 2007; limited to 9 engines for all the scheduled races of its first season.

Permanent contracted riders entered by a CRT; limited to 12 engines for all the scheduled races of the season.

If a CRT loses an engine due to Art. 2.2.2 Claiming Rule, an additional engine will be allowed in the affected rider's allocation.

The number of engines available for use by each rider using a machine entered by a CRT can be changed during the season by a majority decision of the GPC, with the aim of ensuring fair competition. The number of engines allowed after that point will be determined by the GPC, based on half the number of engines remaining in the CRT's allocation, numbers rounded up. (eg. 9 engines remaining /2 = 4.5, rounded up = 5 engines allowed)

Should a rider be replaced for any reason […].

2.5.1 The following are the minimum weights permitted:

[…]

MotoGP up to 800cc capacity motorcycle 150kg

801cc to 1'000cc capacity motorcycle 153kg

2.6.5 The fuel tank capacity limit in the MotoGP class is:

* maximum 21 litres, for motorcycles that have not been entered by CRT's,
* maximum 24 litres, for motorcycles that have been entered by CRT's.

The maximum fuel tank capacity for motorcycles entered by CRT's can be changed during the season by a majority decision of the GPC, with the aim of ensuring fair competition.

[lostinflyz]

the idea of a 900 is not so stupid, as they only have the same fuel as this year, so they would have to limit the fuel supply to a larger motor more, to the point it may well make less power over a race distance than this year.

[Mental Trousers]

I guess all of the current 800's use less than 81mm bores (I've never found anything about the actual bore/stroke on MotoGP machines but I could just be blind).

A factory team (non-CRT) is still limited to 21 litres. The 800's are stretched for fuel on some tracks as it is. You could well be right.

But if someone did run a 900 stroker I would've thought that one of the factories would sell a cheaper (like much cheaper) stroker version of their 800's to a CRT team (I'm guessing Tech Three will be classed as a non-factory/CRT team??) that could then use 24 litres of fuel. It'd make sense. That has the potential to make a crap load of power.

Be interesting to see what happens.

[lostinflyz]

I guess all of the current 800's use less than 81mm bores (I've never found anything about the actual bore/stroke on MotoGP machines but I could just be blind).

A factory team (non-CRT) is still limited to 21 litres. The 800's are stretched for fuel on some tracks as it is. You could well be right.

But if someone did run a 900 stroker I would've thought that one of the factories would sell a cheaper (like much cheaper) stroker version of their 800's to a CRT team (I'm guessing Tech Three will be classed as a non-factory/CRT team??) that could then use 24 litres of fuel. It'd make sense. That has the potential to make a crap load of power.

Be interesting to see what happens.

no the beauty in a way of the whole idea is that the factory's gaurd their motors so much they will never give have one under a CRT team. Honda/yammy/duke wont spend millions developing an engine and the technology just to sell it to someone else for 20000 euro.plus the have to supply and keep happy their current satellite teams teams or they could switch to low tech CRT bikes. The problem there is that if there is a fallout they can block a teams CRT status as it needs to be unanimous.

The idea is to lower the costs of engines thus bikes, without having to lower the technology of the whole grid.

thats the theory of the whole thing. how it works in practice we shall see.....

[Mental Trousers]

That's the thing though, how are the current satellite teams classed for next year??

Stroker engines can be a hell of a lot cheaper because they're not chasing the same insane rev limits. Dropping 1000 revs can more than halve the cost of an engine and strokers will drop more than that.