Graham Capell

[ManDownUnder]

Warning.. This link is guaranteed to offend most :-)
http://img157.exs.cx/img157/6853/punishment5mu.jpg

Gotta admit I don't get it - and I'm not sure I want to...

MDU

[Pixie]

Ok the way I understand it is like this. Others may have a different point of view about it to me... this is just my opinion on it.

Basically the men who do this are in reality very weak shallow men.

By raping and abusing young children or even adults they think in their minds that they are stronger and that they have POWER to stand over someone else.

All it shows is that they really are weak and shallow people.

In their mind, is where they believe they hold the power over someone else.

This power is in fact violence.... The abuse is violent.

They have the physical strength to hold someone down and abuse them.

But its the mind games that they play on their victim's.
The threatening to kill them if they tell anyone.
Thats where the power in the mind comes into play.

But eventually the victim will stand stong and will blow the whistle.
It doesn't matter how long it takes.... but so long as the victim can stand up and say something, then that stops this scum of the earth to stop him in his tracks.

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

The offender needs prison time forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to say to any one on KB that is reading this particular thread, that have been sexually or phsyically abused in anyway.
I truely hope that this is not bringing up old horrible memories for you.

All complex organisms share a particular behavioral trait,that is, the imperative to dominate the other indivduals of their species and other organisms that may compete in the environment,the objective is to pass on their genes.
Much of human behaviour,ultimately stems from this trait,from the bullying colleague to the paedophile.The difference being the way the person was socialised/perverted by the experiences that formed their personalities.
If you analyse most behaviours such as the need to be a leader,for example,
it can be shown that the dominance trait is a major driver for this.
Putting unacceptable behaviours down to "evil" is just letting the causative forces of the hook and panders to religious bullshit.
Capill is just another defective personality and should be disposed of.

[ManDownUnder]

All complex organisms share a particular behavioral trait,that is, the imperative to dominate the other indivduals of their species and other organisms that may compete in the environment,the objective is to pass on their genes.

While I understand and tend to agree with what you're saying, I would suggest that's possibly more of an imperative of non social complex organisms. Social ones need to maintain a balance of individual dominance, while collaborating wiyth a society at large (which is arguable a complex organism in itself) in order to succeed

?

- edit - I surprised myself with that post... feeling all "thinky" today!

- edit 2 - Pixie - I'm not have a goat you, or trying to shoot you down - I really like the post... made me think. Is your post based on a general theory, philosophy, or something you believe yourself (or both?)

MDU

[Paul in NZ]

And so we come to the useful part of the thread. Well done one and all...

IMHO there are a lot of factors at play here. One is the utter disbelief amoungst the most of us 'NORMAL' folks that this can even occur. It is so outside our frame of reference that we cannot comprehend it happening..

Because of this, and our lack of understanding of the things that drive this behaviour we actually give these people room to offend.

Knowing an event has occured, I cannot help wonder what resources are placed into finding out why. If it is a result of parental abuse then I assume the other members of the family (brothers and sisters) are spoken to and steps taken to ensure their families are safe and the cycle is broken? No, probably not... No money for fences at the top of cliffs, just ambulances and paddy wagons at the bottom..

[Badcat]

While I understand and tend to agree with what you're saying, I would suggest that's possibly more of an imperative of non social complex organisms. Social ones need to maintain a balance of individual dominance, while collaborating wiyth a society at large (which is arguable a complex organism in itself) in order to succeed


MDU

And society itself can be self governing.
That explains my inclination to happily cut this man's throat.
Perhaps those of us with small children are somewhat emotional about these evil (yes - evil!) and all too prevalent threats to our families.
Perhaps those of us that need to analyse this matter to the nth degree can theorise about the validity of such an action or statement.
I'd be happy to provide more evidence to potential child rapists of the consequences of acting on their impulses and foregoing their responsibility to their own community.

[James Deuce]

Knowing an event has occured, I cannot help wonder what resources are placed into finding out why. If it is a result of parental abuse then I assume the other members of the family (brothers and sisters) are spoken to and steps taken to ensure their families are safe and the cycle is broken? No, probably not... No money for fences at the top of cliffs, just ambulances and paddy wagons at the bottom..

The "system" is set up to punish those that break laws, irrespective of the natural justice of such a course of action. With that in mind, the victims and perpetrators of systemic family abuse are more likely to go to greater lengths to hide their problems than attempt to work with authorities who are bound by law to report illegal activities or face prosecution and de-registration.

[crashe]

you know, not everyone continues the cycle if they have been abused.
Its only a few who do it.

Some who abuse have never been abused in their lives.

But those who do abuse should go away for life.

[placidfemme]

you know, not everyone continues the cycle if they have been abused.
Its only a few who do it.

Thats true... Of all the people I know who've been abused (sexually, verbally or physically), and there are a lot of them (over 40,000 children are abused every year in NZ). I can't name one person who has abused anyone else... If anything it makes them stronger and a better person after they have dealth with the emotional (and sometimes physical) issues of thier abuse.

I don't believe that using the excuse "I was abused" is good enough. Then if anything they should know first hand why not to do such things...

[muzz]

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

The offender needs prison time forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You cant just believe them you must have prof other wise you start locking up innocent people.
But if they are guilty why punish the rest of us by locking them up wasting valuable resources (ie: tax dollars).
Prisons dont reform they meerly isolate undesirables.
Privatise prisons to make them accountable for there own funding not using tax dollars.

[Pixie]

While I understand and tend to agree with what you're saying, I would suggest that's possibly more of an imperative of non social complex organisms. Social ones need to maintain a balance of individual dominance, while collaborating wiyth a society at large (which is arguable a complex organism in itself) in order to succeed

?

- edit - I surprised myself with that post... feeling all "thinky" today!

- edit 2 - Pixie - I'm not have a goat you, or trying to shoot you down - I really like the post... made me think. Is your post based on a general theory, philosophy, or something you believe yourself (or both?)

MDU

Both, I think we discount the fact that we operate largely on instinct and then convince ourselves we made conscious decisions,The question is what brought us to a particular decision?
This does not abdicate responsibility for actions,which people like Capill take.
You can wake up every morning with a overpowering need to put a bullet in your head,but it is still an action you decide not to do today.
The "I couldn't fight the urges" argument doesn't wash with me,with the exception of schizophrenia sufferers.


The only organisms,to my knowledge ,in which the individual doesn't strive to pass on it's own genes are the social insects (ants, bees, termites)and the naked mole rat.Each of these only one female breeds and the rest of the population assists the success of the queen,and as the entire population is as genetically close as siblings the same genes get passed on.These species can almost be concidered a single organism.
There is no more point for an individual mole rat to fight for supremacy than for one of your liver cells fighting the others for the same.

[Pixie]

Thats true... Of all the people I know who've been abused (sexually, verbally or physically), and there are a lot of them (over 40,000 children are abused every year in NZ). I can't name one person who has abused anyone else... If anything it makes them stronger and a better person after they have dealth with the emotional (and sometimes physical) issues of thier abuse.

I don't believe that using the excuse "I was abused" is good enough. Then if anything they should know first hand why not to do such things...

To say that abusive behaviour is the result of being abused is an over simplification.It would be more likely to be correct to say that domination through abuse teaches that domination is a valid way to succeed,and abuse is one way of achieving it.
For a victim with a different personality,being dominated by abuse may lead them to dominate others in later life by overachieving at work.
Or 6 billion variations on the theme.
I only have two benchmarks to catagorise negative behaviours:
1. Is it a clinical condition.If so get treatment or have the behaviour neutralised by what ever means necessary.

2. I the behaviour requires a conscious decision for the perpetrator to proceed,then the perpetrator should be removed.

[ManDownUnder]

And society itself can be self governing.
That explains my inclination to happily cut this man's throat.
Perhaps those of us with small children are somewhat emotional about these evil (yes - evil!) and all too prevalent threats to our families.
Perhaps those of us that need to analyse this matter to the nth degree can theorise about the validity of such an action or statement.
I'd be happy to provide more evidence to potential child rapists of the consequences of acting on their impulses and foregoing their responsibility to their own community.

Yeah - I have to admit the father of 2 (that I am) is inclined to say one thing, while the analyst/academic says something else. I also know I'd be on the bandwagon to "Get the bastards" if anyone THOUGHT of touching my kids (5 and 2) like that.

[ManDownUnder]

To say that abusive behaviour is the result of being abused is an over simplification.It would be more likely to be correct to say that domination through abuse teaches that domination is a valid way to succeed,and abuse is one way of achieving it.
For a victim with a different personality,being dominated by abuse may lead them to dominate others in later life by overachieving at work.
Or 6 billion variations on the theme.
I only have two benchmarks to catagorise negative behaviours:
1. Is it a clinical condition.If so get treatment or have the behaviour neutralised by what ever means necessary.

2. I the behaviour requires a conscious decision for the perpetrator to proceed,then the perpetrator should be removed.

errr... Pixie... GOOD POST! That kinda puts it in perspective... and in a perspective I can't find fault with. (I like that kind of framework... ) I'm learning here - thanks...!

No brownie points for you though - Mr KB site locked me out from doing that...MDU

[Lou Girardin]

Slightly off topic, but still about rape. I was following the trial of the 4 Tauranga men for the historic gang rape of a woman 16 years ago. Apart from being most impressed that the jury took her word over 4 "respectable" men, I was interested that one jurer said that what settled it for her, was that one of the defendants boasted that he'd never had to rape or pay for sex. "He had plenty of women".
The jurer thought to herself, "who are you kidding, fat man".
As in the Jackson trial, one phrase can be the turning point in a case.