Graham Capell

[vifferman]

At the risk of reviving the dreaded Scottish thread, the focus of this thread needs to be brought back to the key point, which is the connexion between Mr Capill's public religious and moral position and pronouncements, and his private behaviour. There are no doubt some who would argue that the former is coincidental to and entirely disconnected from the latter. What arguments can be put forward to support this view?

Not many, if any.

Answers in the form of an academic essay, with full referencing and bibliography, please...

Nup.

[Paul in NZ]

I, for one, couldn't give a fat rats arse about why he did it. He's a predator of the defenceless and vulnerable.

And one could argue that selling over chromed, over sized and under performing motorcycles to middle aged men as being exactly that Lou. (pt)

But I think I should have explained a little more (hey stop groaning) as I'm not excusing the man, I'm asking why we feel so reviled by this and suggesting we should be looking at the why to stop this happening again because I can’t help but wonder if a lot of our ‘revulsion’ to these crimes is due to the fact that we all fear that we have a piece of this animal inside our hearts just looking for the slightest chance to escape..

No, not just the child molester but the murderer, torturer, deviant or inhuman thief….

We regard ourselves as ‘civilized’ and yet we don’t need to look far to find examples of where loving fathers or husbands have committed the most heinous acts and gone home to the family and been a caring parent. Sometimes these acts are committed in the name of god, country, war, sport, booze or race and sometimes just because they thought they could get away with it.

Is what Mr Capill did any worse than the Lions fan that knowingly drove while jet lagged and took the life of an innocent 18 year old girl? ‘Oh but that was an accident’… Well Mr Capill might argue that he never intended this to happen.

Hence my question.... Why did this happen?

As a father of 3 daughters I abhor what this man has done and personally I doubt that such a deceitful person should ever be trusted again. I get so angry at the potential damage these men have done to my relationship with my own girls and to organizations like Scouting, Churches, and the teaching profession.

But are we any different?

We may not be kiddie fiddlers or rapists but I’m sorry, I do see a reduced level of what is acceptable behavior. The Shane Warnes, the shock jocks, the media (Big brother?) and the whole ‘marketing’ business. Self sacrifice and high intentions are not cool any more. It’s ‘show me the money’ and however you achieve that (as long as you don’t get caught) is aok until TV3 says otherwise and then you are torn down and ripped to shreds by the very media wolves that lifted you high in the first place.

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

Just a thought? I'd be interested to hear yours?

Paul N

btw - don't get me wrong - if they are looking for volunteers for the firing squad my hand is UP!

[Zed]

Zed being the big man that he is gave me bad feed back for my post...

I had a feeling you'd make a public outcry at that. You shouldn't have had the cheek to tell me to "get over it"!

[placidfemme]

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

I can understand where your coming from and trying to put a little logic into the topic...

It's really hard to argue a point thats this sensitive, and unique. There are child abusers, and Capil is being targeted as a "Christian" child abuser... which makes it harder.

I agree that we need to take responsibility and put our families and communities higher on our lists... But I don't think Capell can be excused, what caused him to do it? Because he was in a position where these poor kids parents thought that Capell was a good, decent, God fearing man (with 10 kids of his own), so they would have thought that leaving thier kids alone with this man would be a safe and responsible thing to do... and Capell took advantage of this... and obviously has a fetish for taboo sexual excounters... Some see it as kinky... others dirty... and others outrageous.

I don't think this is something we as a community can change... People who have tendancies such as child abuse/child porn and the such know its not a socially accepted fetish (as you all know BDSM is looked upon in a bad way and it's nothing compared to anything child related) so when someone feels those lets say... dirty... feelings it's not like they are going to go to anyone (a friend/pastor/spouse/family member) and say something like "I want to touch children". And when put into a situation where they know they have the oppertunity to do such things... it just happens... their passion/desire/lust (insert appropriate word here) is all they can feel as soon as they know "this is their chance".

We can educate our children, and let them know that certain things are not right and people shouldn't touch them in certain places... and if in the unfortunate event of such a thing happening that they should tell you right away...

*doesn't see a solution for this problem*

[crashe]

Graham Capill, stood up and publicly stated that only homosexual's were pedophiles (sp) and abused children. (WE now that this is NOT true)
Well now, what is he... yep he is now a convicted pedophile. While he was standing up and saying all of this, he was himself abusing children.

He has apologised to his wife for what he has done....
Excuse me... but what about his 3 victims.
There may well be others that he has abused or raped.

It turns out that his wife may have known about this....from one of the victims at a wedding that she was at, after capill rushed into the room when she was getting dressed. (an article on the Otago paper)

Now that wedding was long before the last victim (11 year old) so Capill's wife is also guilty as she did nothing about it.

How can any woman stand by her man after what he has done.
I hope the police are going to check out his 10 children to make sure now of them were abused. He produced 10 children.

Sure he may be in a secure wing at the moment... and most likely on 'suicide watch' but given time the guards will turn a blind eye and leave a door open. The boys inside will deal to him and make him their 'bitch'. He will then be on the receiveing end... and not the giver. He deserves what ever the boys inside deals to him.

He will whimper all the time he is inside...

Rot in hell Graham Capill.

[Lou Girardin]

And one could argue that selling over chromed, over sized and under performing motorcycles to middle aged men as being exactly that Lou. (pt)

But I think I should have explained a little more (hey stop groaning) as I'm not excusing the man, I'm asking why we feel so reviled by this and suggesting we should be looking at the why to stop this happening again because I can’t help but wonder if a lot of our ‘revulsion’ to these crimes is due to the fact that we all fear that we have a piece of this animal inside our hearts just looking for the slightest chance to escape..

No, not just the child molester but the murderer, torturer, deviant or inhuman thief….

We regard ourselves as ‘civilized’ and yet we don’t need to look far to find examples of where loving fathers or husbands have committed the most heinous acts and gone home to the family and been a caring parent. Sometimes these acts are committed in the name of god, country, war, sport, booze or race and sometimes just because they thought they could get away with it.

Is what Mr Capill did any worse than the Lions fan that knowingly drove while jet lagged and took the life of an innocent 18 year old girl? ‘Oh but that was an accident’… Well Mr Capill might argue that he never intended this to happen.

Hence my question.... Why did this happen?

As a father of 3 daughters I abhor what this man has done and personally I doubt that such a deceitful person should ever be trusted again. I get so angry at the potential damage these men have done to my relationship with my own girls and to organizations like Scouting, Churches, and the teaching profession.

But are we any different?

We may not be kiddie fiddlers or rapists but I’m sorry, I do see a reduced level of what is acceptable behavior. The Shane Warnes, the shock jocks, the media (Big brother?) and the whole ‘marketing’ business. Self sacrifice and high intentions are not cool any more. It’s ‘show me the money’ and however you achieve that (as long as you don’t get caught) is aok until TV3 says otherwise and then you are torn down and ripped to shreds by the very media wolves that lifted you high in the first place.

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

Just a thought? I'd be interested to hear yours?

Paul N

btw - don't get me wrong - if they are looking for volunteers for the firing squad my hand is UP!

I'm just glad I don't sell them then. Harley salesmen as predators? I would have thought they performed a public service.
I don't know about the argument, "there but for the grace of God go I".
It might apply to some sins, but it's a huge stretch to use it in this case.
He abused a position of trust to get access to his victims, I fail to see how the most loving parents could have protected these kids.
He was a religeous leader, people TRUSTED him.
Which makes his crimes all the more reprehensible.
And being the snivelling coward that he is, his particular hell is still to come.

[ManDownUnder]

We can educate our children, and let them know that certain things are not right and people shouldn't touch them in certain places... and if in the unfortunate event of such a thing happening that they should tell you right away...

*doesn't see a solution for this problem*

Yeah it's a tough one and it's interesting how it highlights the fact we live in a society which actually is just a "social construct". Society isn't "something" it's a set of rules that spells out how we can all live together - giving up some freedoms (such as the freedom to shoot people that annoy us, take what we want etc) and giving us a corresponding - and greater - set of valuable protections from being the victims of those crimes.

My thought is that it should be ok to talk to people. I know men have a really hard time of it here in NZ. It's just not done.

You have a problem? In NZ you're expected to stoically tough it out- work it out for yourself and hope for the best. A cry for help isn't just an indication you can't handle what's going on, in male NZ it's a sign of weakness.

As an example, we all know a damned good cry is needed sometimes. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does - it really does.

If you need help - ask for it dammit.

I'm not saying this would have changed anything in this specific (Caphill) situation, but who knows what has influenced him to do this?
1) He's got 10 kids
2) He's used to being in a position of power
3) He likes being in the limelight
4) He abused his position of power with a little girl

All of those things indicate to me he DIDN'T have a lot of control of him younger life. Something happened... maybe he was one of many kids and felt insignificant, maybe his parents divorced and he felt unable to control it, maybe a lot of things.

At THAT time he needed help - and in not getting it he's compensating (see items 1 - 3 above) and item 4 could be a consequence of him deciding he IS that power he always wanted, and combined with a number of urges he's been suppressing for years as a man of the cloth and publicly espousing the values he's consiously expected to have... something happened - a situation presented itself and he walked over that line he can never go back over.

Im not belittling his actions. He is 100% responsible for them.

I'm just saying (and guessing) there could be a lot going on behind the scenes that contribute to him doing what he did... and it could have been mitigated if he's had help on hand when it was needed, combined with a culture of making it ok to ask for help...

MDU

[Mr Skid]

Graham Capill, stood up and publicly stated that only homosexual's were pedophiles (sp) and abused children. (WE now that this is NOT true)
Well now, what is he...

..a homosexual?

[crashe]

..a homosexual?

No way....

No gayman would even fancy him.

He is like the other straight men who are pedophiles.
SCUM of this earth.

[Lou Girardin]

No way....

No gayman would even fancy him.

He is like the other straight men who are pedophiles.
SCUM of this earth.

I'm sure gays have bad taste just like everyone else. After all, someone is shagging Chris Carter.

[crashe]

I'm sure gays have bad taste just like everyone else. After all, someone is shagging Chris Carter.

Yep Peter is.... and they have been together for 30 years...

[Mr Skid]

No gayman would even fancy him.

Hmm.. yeah good point.

[Paul in NZ]

I can understand where your coming from and trying to put a little logic into the topic...

Thank you!

I agree that we need to take responsibility and put our families and communities higher on our lists... But I don't think Capell can be excused, what caused him to do it? Because he was in a position where these poor kids parents thought that Capell was a good, decent, God fearing man (with 10 kids of his own), so they would have thought that leaving thier kids alone with this man would be a safe and responsible thing to do... and Capell took advantage of this... and obviously has a fetish for taboo sexual excounters... Some see it as kinky... others dirty... and others outrageous.

Nope - I'm not excusing him at all.

What I want to know is did he put himself into this position because he would have access to children or was he in fact well motivated initially and something bad leaked out of him?

The bigger question is our fundemental desire to elevate these people into positions of leadership. The fundementals of most religions are quite simple and plainly stated. Chaletans come along with interpretations of these fundementals and set themselves up as leaders. Hopefully the 'why' question would encourage people to look into their own hearts to see if this kind of leadership is actually required. Especially if people took a little more active roles in some organisations instead of blindly surrendering control to prople they really know very little about.

I don't think this is something we as a community can change... People who have tendancies such as child abuse/child porn and the such know its not a socially accepted fetish (as you all know BDSM is looked upon in a bad way and it's nothing compared to anything child related) so when someone feels those lets say... dirty... feelings it's not like they are going to go to anyone (a friend/pastor/spouse/family member) and say something like "I want to touch children". And when put into a situation where they know they have the oppertunity to do such things... it just happens... their passion/desire/lust (insert appropriate word here) is all they can feel as soon as they know "this is their chance".

And here we come to the crux of the matter! thanks for defining it a little better for me. Because of our 'shock horror' reactions we are most unlikely to admit to such a thing. Perhaps if there was a little more logic involved before the event and an understanding of the why such things could be averted. For instance, I would admire someone that sought treatment for something they know is just plain wrong before they acted on such an impulse.

I have trouble lumping BDSM and associated thingies into this. Most of these activities are usually pretty harmless playing with fetish objects inside a mutually beneficial relationship. True sadists and / or maosichists (sp) are very rare (or so I'm led to believe). Yet strangely a hell of a lot of people get turned on by the imagry used (if the interwebby thing is anything to go by) The true harm is lumping non mainstream behaviours between consenting adults into the same bucket as the real horrors of rape and child molesting. The critical difference (to me) is an unwilling or unknowing victim.

I can't help but feel it's because we have such strong anti reactions to these things (rape - child sex etc) that an atmosphere is created where it is not discussed and that actually allows enough room for these people to operate in!

No one dares bring it up!

Paul N

[Lou Girardin]

I can't help wondering if all the "how could this happen" and the " he must be sick" reactions are not just encouragement for these people.
It's a "I can't help myself, it's not my fault, I'm a victim too mentality".
It was shown clearly with Martin Sheenes "sex addiction". It's not an addiction, it's lack of self-control.
This behaviour doesn't need understanding because understanding implies that it can be fixed. On the contrary, you'll never stop it.

[ManDownUnder]

This behaviour doesn't need understanding because understanding implies that it can be fixed. On the contrary, you'll never stop it.

'fraid we'll need to agree to disagree on that one.

Awareness leads to understanding leads to intervention leads to stopping the cycle.

What do you think we should do for the girls that were molested? Give them help and support right now, or wait a while, keep an eye on them and lock 'em up if they do something similar/wrong?

I'd expect that as the victims of this man, they're now more likely to commit similar offences in the future (and I'd really like to see any stats supporting or disproving that view).

My argument is that the girls should have support - just as My Caphill should have when he needed it. We get to stop the cycle of abuse then.

MDU