Leaky buildings. Thinking of buying a post '95 home? Own one?

[Quasievil]

What I'd like to ask you hving worked for Hardie's... have you seen what happens to some of there products after 10yrs in all weathers? I asume so ofcourse... just that what I have found and not so much with the high density boards but more 4.5-6mm were its been used on the inside of parapits and the tops.

From memory the angle had to be 35 deg or more to use this as a top, I think even them you needed a barrier like a neoprene over top, cant remember its been 8 years odd.
But if not done right you will have all sorts of problems as you will be solely relying on the plaster finish for waterproofing, which 9/10 is a very thin plaster as well

[flyingcrocodile46]

No need to be insulting here, my allegations towards the situation are based on 6 years with Hardies and Carter Holt

I have my opinion on the matter and im sticking to it, builders and developers did the work they owned the contracts and they built the leaky homes and were the "professional" in charge of the site works.
To blame the materials used is weak, especially when they where NOT used correctly and according to manufactures specification and recommendations and as I say I have been to many many sites that enforces my opinion concretely.

How Many significant Auckland apartment complexes leak, I know of about 5 ALL of them where erected incorrectly, I have a Photo somewhere of some roof flashings that didnt fit right (made wrong) they used it anyway and it had a hole in it the size of an orange that was filled (poorly) with silicone...........yeah that was Selleys fault right ?
I went to one job (titan) where there was no timber behind ANY of the vertical joints the Neoprene vertical seal started to fall into the cavity leaving a 10 mm gap on the joints........that was Hardies fault right ?

Another one and very common situation that I was seeing 3-4 times a month was cracks on the joints, usually on long walls I remember one house 14 metre long wall not one control joint not one expansion joint as specified by hardies, its in the manual...........hardies Fault ?? nope, the builders ..............again.
All the brochures and installation instructions are readily available at all outlets.

The builder was responsible for this period as he did it, not Mum and Dad, not the Architect, not the council, not the suppliers THE BUILDER did it, he is the professional and he cant blame the sub trades either as its his contract.

In the case of a Developer employing the cheap unqualified labour then the developer is then the Builder.

And I stand by the fact I haven't seen a leak due to faulty product it has ALL been due to installation and sub standard work being carried out.

The materials are no more to blame than the buyers, specifiers or installers. The manufacturers however should share the lions share of blame in some instances where they have represented their products as significantly more or better than they are (especially when they know otherwise).

Just how critical is it to comply with manufacturer's installation instructions? If the manufacturer thought it was critical maybe they should have withdrawn superseded installation instructions from suppliers brochure ranges a little quicker than the (up to 3 year time frame I and others have witnessed). Particularly given that they couldn't get the instructions right in the first instance when they introduced the product or (as in the case of JH Harditex) again in July 87, or again in July 91, or again in Dec 92, or again in June 93, or again in August 94, or again in July 95, or again in Feb 96, or again in June 98. If builders are incompetent for not following the instructions properly, what of JH for not getting them right in the first instance?

The unsuitability of the product to perform and meet NZBC requirements is demonstrated by the withdrawal of the product from the market by the manufacturer. Not the first of their products to be withdrawn because of systemic product failure. (see Hardishake/shingle roofing) and wont be the last. I have had to return whole pellets of Monoteck and Harditex because of delamination. Just as well I did quaity control because clearly JH did not. The suppliers rep confirmed that other jobs where the same batch run of cladding was installed were not subject to a recall by JH. Yeah they are real stand up people.

Of course all the ducking, diving and rule changes around this product had nothing to do with the fact that JH were well aware that Fibre cement cladding was failing in the US and Canada (at the same time that JH were undertaking massive advertising campaigns to dupe people into buying crap product by claiming Harditex to be a superior low maintenance cladding)
No of course not. That would have meant that they mislead the public and conveniently made it near impossible for those incompetent installers to comply with installation instructions (thereby rendering JH free and clear of any blame). You can squirt on about how innocent manufacturer's were in front of people who don't know the truth. But deep down you and I know the truth don't we?

I am not going to dispute that there are many instances where installers (including JH trained and accredited) did some really dumb things. (I never made the the claim otherwise) However, you based on your limited (and biased) observations are factually incorrect and insultingly so. To suggest that it's all the fault of the builders (particularly when you are lumping bonafide builders in with owner builders and are refusing to concede any of the other major contributing factors.) That is plain ignorance and shouldn't be left to uninformed readers to mistake as factual. Narrow minded viewpoints prevent observation of the truths.

[dangerous]

From memory the angle had to be 35 deg or more to use this as a top, I think even them you needed a barrier like a neoprene over top, cant remember its been 8 years odd.
But if not done right you will have all sorts of problems as you will be solely relying on the plaster finish for waterproofing, which 9/10 is a very thin plaster as well

thats right so why dont Hardies stick bloody big warning stickers on their indervidual products as to their uses... ohh cos they just want a sale.

[flyingcrocodile46]

hearing ya Quasie... and myself I dont doubt that sort of shit happens one little bit... That said I have not seen anything that bad down here, mostely things were done right for 13yrs ago.

What I'd like to ask you hving worked for Hardie's... have you seen what happens to some of there products after 10yrs in all weathers? I asume so ofcourse... just that what I have found and not so much with the high density boards but more 4.5-6mm were its been used on the inside of parapits and the tops.
The board goes like weetbix, were its constently wet and drys its powder... What I see is the wrong boards being used for the wrong situations, again short cutting by a builder or owner in order to do the job cheaper... the kiwi way.


Its not the monotec thats the problem, but the thin arse plaster, use a old school 20mm thick plastering system and no worries at all.


YIP

That sort of fibre cement breakdown occurs because of wetting of the boards (which shouldn't occur in over 90 % of instances if installed and maintained properly). Fibre cement was reinforced by Asbestos fibres in the bad old days. When asbestos fibres were replaced it was with wood fibers. The wood fibres decay if they are saturated for any significant period of time and the board then turns back to the dust from whence it came.

Thermally driven water vapor (nothing to do with leaks) can be present on the rear face of cladding and can on occasion result in this level of degradation. In that instance it would be a failure of the product rather than installation.

[JimO]

There are also developers like Double Happy Lucky with your money Long Time Construction Co who employ "trades on a piece meal basis for instance

Footing and floor team
Builder stands the frames and trusses and is gone
Larry Windows fixes the openings
Wang Chung Cladding Shaggers wrap, flash and plaster the building leaving off the important clear, hard to inspect to see if its actually been done, sealer.
Hong Kong Phooeys painting service rolls a thin pigment "sealing" the plaster
40 kids with hammers file out of a van and hit plasterboard until they run out of places to throw it.
Rice is Nice Plasterers get the poorly fixed gib ready for Hong Kong Phooeys painting services.
Jacky Chans tiling services with the motto "If your regular tiler says "you need a water proofing membrane", your paying to much" walk in and arse up a box or of tiles over some semi flat porous surfaces.

Payless homes sell the house and the first winter it leaks, owners contact the council, council go "shyt" look up the house file and find the one regestration number on the plans, so who is that then? The builder who stood the timber and left. Council phone builder with hysterical cries of foul play and lawyers etc, builder takes a breath and says "I didnt build the house just stood the frames" council says "yeah that's original prove it in court". builder refers the liability process back to the developer with the name often using the the letters Xiu who strangely enough has skipped the country..

This strange story sadly isn't a work of fiction, a development a few houses away had this story to the birth of a defective but "modern" cave.

this system is used by group housing companies as well, you know the ones they are either in receivership, about to go into receivership or a new owner is resurrecting the francise from receivership, i dont work for those cunts either there have probably been dozens in the otago regin in the last 20 years some going down some more than once leaving unfinished houses, unpaid subbies and owners out of money. You get what you pay for and that applys to building houses, i hear one group housing company advertising a 10k cashback on signing up to one of their houses chances are high that 10k has been shaved off the various subtrades, you hear it all the time in the building industrie, look after is on this job and you can do all our work!! at a reduced rate of course

[ellipsis]

....much like i've said in a previous post...if you want to build your castle with shit that has as much substance to it as a breakfast cereal, one should not be surprised that it is starting to fail by lunchtime the day after fixing...marketing by insincere people to a dumb populace that believes anything said on an ad endorsed by well paid pricks that could'nt give a toss....

[Quasievil]

thats right so why dont Hardies stick bloody big warning stickers on their indervidual products as to their uses... ohh cos they just want a sale.

They provided information in all of the distributors sites that guided the installer on correct use and installation, Hardies assumed they where dealing with professionals............Oh they werent they where dealing with Monkies making a quick buck at the expense of honest families

[Quasievil]

The materials are no more to blame than the buyers, specifiers or installers. The manufacturers however should share the lions share of blame in some instances where they have represented their products as significantly more or better than they are (especially when they know otherwise).

Just how critical is it to comply with manufacturer's installation instructions? If the manufacturer thought it was critical maybe they should have withdrawn superseded installation instructions from suppliers brochure ranges a little quicker than the (up to 3 year time frame I and others have witnessed). Particularly given that they couldn't get the instructions right in the first instance when they introduced the product or (as in the case of JH Harditex) again in July 87, or again in July 91, or again in Dec 92, or again in June 93, or again in August 94, or again in July 95, or again in Feb 96, or again in June 98. If builders are incompetent for not following the instructions properly, what of JH for not getting them right in the first instance?

The unsuitability of the product to perform and meet NZBC requirements is demonstrated by the withdrawal of the product from the market by the manufacturer. Not the first of their products to be withdrawn because of systemic product failure. (see Hardishake/shingle roofing) and wont be the last. I have had to return whole pellets of Monoteck and Harditex because of delamination. Just as well I did quaity control because clearly JH did not. The suppliers rep confirmed that other jobs where the same batch run of cladding was installed were not subject to a recall by JH. Yeah they are real stand up people.

Of course all the ducking, diving and rule changes around this product had nothing to do with the fact that JH were well aware that Fibre cement cladding was failing in the US and Canada (at the same time that JH were undertaking massive advertising campaigns to dupe people into buying crap product by claiming Harditex to be a superior low maintenance cladding)
No of course not. That would have meant that they mislead the public and conveniently made it near impossible for those incompetent installers to comply with installation instructions (thereby rendering JH free and clear of any blame). You can squirt on about how innocent manufacturer's were in front of people who don't know the truth. But deep down you and I know the truth don't we?

I am not going to dispute that there are many instances where installers (including JH trained and accredited) did some really dumb things. (I never made the the claim otherwise) However, you based on your limited (and biased) observations are factually incorrect and insultingly so. To suggest that it's all the fault of the builders (particularly when you are lumping bonafide builders in with owner builders and are refusing to concede any of the other major contributing factors.) That is plain ignorance and shouldn't be left to uninformed readers to mistake as factual. Narrow minded viewpoints prevent observation of the truths.

Ok so Builders used willingly inferior products , now if you think that hardies is inferior that's fine no point arguing it with you is there, it still however leaves the builder installing it with clearly limited skill and or motivation in doing a good job...............the apparent professional builder failed in his elementary task of building a water tight home.
By your argument I can start a company producing chocolate fudge cake wall cladding and the builder that uses it wont be responsible.

just to level it out, I respect your depth of knowledge here and I understand youre more deeply involved in the industry than I ever was, I am merely speaking from my personal experience in the field as a remotely based rep.

[Grasshopperus]

Hi guys,

I just want to say a big thanks to all the contributors to this thread;
Camsec, crocodile, quasi, dangerous, jimo, and others. This is an extremely eye-opening thread. I've no building know-how (been looking up the various terms like palistrades, eaves, flashings etc so learning heaps) and reading your comments just freaks the hell out of me.

I've got a 60's bungalow with weatherboards, huge frickin' eaves and a tin roof. I gather that as long as I maintain it it'll keep well which is the name of the game eh.

Anyway, how is a non-builder/expert supposed to buy a house nowadays??

When I was looking for my first place a couple of years ago I figured that if a house was 30+ years old and still looked like it was in good nick then it was probably likely to stay that way with normal maintenance. Sounds like if you're looking at something from 1990 onwards you'd need an inspector to take a real good look at it. But that could be another can of worms, how do you ensure that the guy who inspects your place knows about his stuff? And if you do end up seriously looking at a place and do get inspections, well... you might end up paying for 10 inspections before actually buying a place. You'd have to get the inspection done yourself because you wouldn't easily trust an inspection by someone you didn't commission either. These are all further barriers to entry in my opinion.

Also, some other real basic questions
1) Brick and tile is just another cladding option right? A house is still framed the same no matter what the outside is like? Are B&T places immune to this leaky home BS?
2) The steel framing you see advertised looks like a good option but there are different grades of stainless steel as well eh?

Really appreciate all the knowledge you guys are imparting, even when you're disagreeing

[Ocean1]

2) The steel framing you see advertised looks like a good option but there are different grades of stainless steel as well eh?

Steel framing isn't stainless steel, it's roll-formed galvanised mild steel.

And done well it probably is a good option, but remember that it's relatively new, and a lack of experience right through the various trades represents a risk. EG: electricians need to understand how to manage wiring running over razor sharp service holes.

[Grasshopperus]

Steel framing isn't stainless steel, it's roll-formed galvanised mild steel.

And done well it probably is a good option, but remember that it's relatively new, and a lack of experience right through the various trades represents a risk. EG: electricians need to understand how to manage wiring running over razor sharp service holes.

Ah right. Why wouldn't they make it out of stainless steel? That sounds like a marketing bonus "It'll never rot/rust!"

[Quasievil]

Ah right. Why wouldn't they make it out of stainless steel? That sounds like a marketing bonus "It'll never rot/rust!"

Cost mate, that would be real expensive

[Ocean1]

Ah right. Why wouldn't they make it out of stainless steel? That sounds like a marketing bonus "It'll never rot/rust!"

Cost to some degree, but any grade of stainless will still be susceptable to some corrosion influences. Guess it's a cost / benefit thing, there's nothing wrong with galvanised steel if it's assembled and fitted out right.

[Spearfish]

Cost to some degree, but any grade of stainless will still be susceptable to some corrosion influences. Guess it's a cost / benefit thing, there's nothing wrong with galvanised steel if it's assembled and fitted out right.

Isn't that how this whole thing started?

[JimO]

[QUOTE=Grasshopperus;1130105435]




1) Brick and tile is just another cladding option right? A house is still framed the same no matter what the outside is like? Are B&T places immune to this leaky home BS?


water pisses through brick, bricks are as waterproof as your socks, the water runs down the inside of the cavity and in a old house down on the foundation , in a house with a slab hopefully along the rebate and out the weep holes, some people block these weep holes to stop draughts, bad move