Who will win the 2011 election?

[Quasievil]

Another is to belittle ones opponents by calling them naive, silly or stupid.

Thats Mr Shrub tho hehehe

[Quasievil]

Sometimes I envy the likes of Quasi with their naive and simple perspectives where black is black and white is the exact opposite and there is nothing in between or around to worry about.

Yore such a wanker Shrub

My politices are awesome, mum said so.

ACT ACT and ACT woo hoooooo
but I will take the Nats any day over all of the other parties especially the loony left !

[Swoop]

whilst you're at it. Cut the "charitable donation" tax incentives... why give someone a third of their money back when they voluntarily donated to charity?

Exactly. Cut out donations to everyone and also to "religious entities" as well while we are at it. Bloody "charities"!

The muthafarkers are looking at fiddling with our last remaining public broadcasters too....dropping TVNZ 7 & farking with National Radio.
You only need to look at what TV1 & TV3 put on thier 6pm news & then watch
TVNZ 7 @ 8pm to see the difference . They'll say that thats what the people want....most are too stupid to know what they want

YES!! There's nothing like public propaganda from TVNZ and other organisations that are funded by the government, for complete impartiality...

Im not trying to tell people what the should do...I just think that seeing nearly all our information comes from the Media, that a nonaligned organisation may have less fiddling & fewer agendas going on in the Boardroom.

You obviously want an organisation that is not aligned with government propaganda then? TVNZ does not fall into that category.

Im just so skeptical when it comes to any Govt looking to balance the books, or scoring cheap Brownie points...

But happy to have their "representatives" feed you their "version" of the facts, obviously?

The puppet master has been with us forever using a mixture of tools, and a favourite is creating fear and distrust, It used to be called propoganda... It's bloody interesting stuff to study even if it makes one very cynical of damn near everyone and everything.

Summing up "politics" in a nutshell.

[Winston001]

You do remember that a certain % of the population are required to be unemployed to help control inflation?

That is a common belief but is not an accepted economic strategy. Indeed Keynesian economics goes completely against this and requires governments to borrow and spend to retain/create high employment.

Furthermore, studies show that full employment is rare in recent human history and is a phenomenon of the last 150 years.

Oh, and whilst you're at it. Cut the "charitable donation" tax incentives... why give someone a third of their money back when they voluntarily donated to charity?

Good point. Roger Douglas proposed this 20 years ago but his Labour colleagues wouldn't remove charitable deductions.

The rationale is that charities do a great deal of unpaid beneficial work for the community, picking up some of the tax-payers burden. So if a donation is tax-deductible then the giver is inclined to give more. We all win.

[oldrider]

According to this guy, behold the puppet masters! http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/...-humanity.html

True .... or just someone or something to blame?

[Winston001]

I personally think that most of Nat Radio is a great thing, but it doesn't give me the right to spend other peoples taxes on it.

That is a principled and ethical position to hold. Good on you.


Nevertheless I disagree. National public radio IMHO falls into the category of the Arts - like the NZ Ballet, NZ Symphony Orchestra, live theatre, painting and sculpture etc. William Shakespeare for example would never have been able to perform his plays without the financial support of rich people.

For centuries the Arts (particularly live theatre) has only thrived because of patronage ie. money from Kings, Popes, and other wealthy supporters. Plays and art galleries which actually make money are rare.

I think NZ would be a poorer place if we lost Kim Hill, Geoff Robinson, Jim Mora, and Mary Wilson (though she makes my teeth grate ) etc. National Radio is the only place to find depth interviews, interesting people, and any topic under the sun being covered. The cost to the taxpayer is small when we consider the Rugby World Cup amd America's Cup spending.

[SPman]

Yore such a wanker Shrub

My politices are awesome, mum said so.

ACT ACT and ACT woo hoooooo
but I will take the Nats any day over all of the other parties especially the loony left !

Hey - aren't you meant to be sunning yrself in deepest Queensland!
Get back to the beach!

[Quasievil]

Hey - aren't you meant to be sunning yrself in deepest Queensland!
Get back to the beach!

yeah that was last week, it was nice to ...........very nice

[Winston001]

Does anyone actually believe this will do one ounce of good or that Key and the Nats really care about the 2600 people affected?

The only reason they have done it is because their supporters will nod sagely and say "finally Someone Is Doing Something About It" or "about time they Got Tough On Beneficiaries".

Kind agree but...

Or...maybe...just maybe it is simply a strategy to try. See if it makes any difference. It can't be a big vote winner because many voters know or have relatives on benefits and are sympathetic to them.

And it may not work at all. We've seen a myriad of social programs not just in NZ but in Oz, the UK, Europe etc since the 1970s. Wisconsin famously has a work-for-the-dole scheme - no idea if it has worked.

Seem to recall Labour's laudable "Closing the Gaps" program failed too. Pity.

Trying a limited use credit card isn't exactly revolutionary compared with say, removing any right to state support until age 18.

[shrub]

Jeez, you're good at Propaganda

One of the basic tactics of propaganda is to blame the current troubles on a shadowy group or conspiracy. Galavanise the people by tilting at shadows.

Use snappy epithets for the opposition - "Puppet Master" for example.

Another is to belittle ones opponents by calling them naive, silly or stupid.

Good at propaganda? Probably, I've worked for many years in marketing and PR which is also why I am pretty good at seeing when it's being used.

The thing is mate, there are groups and individuals out there, some shadowey and some not, that work bloody hard to influence people and control their behaviour. Some (most) of them are businesses and their goal is to make people feel a certain way about them and their products and change their buying behaviour, some are industry groups, some are lobby groups, some political groups and sometimes you even get grand coalitions. They have learnt that they're most effective when they're subtle or even invisible because if you change what someone feels you have significantly better results than if you merely point out the facts and lay the data on the table. And my use of the epiphet puppet master was an intentional strategy to get a response.

As for calling Quasi naive, silly or stupid - I called him naive but not silly or stupid because he's not stupid and probably no more silly than you or I (although I struggle for better words to describe someone who hates all Somalis for the sole reason they're from Somalia). However based on his posts I would have to describe him as politically naive and he often chooses to accept a viewpoint without having looked beyond the superficial and appears to see no reason to back his opinion with facts.

[shrub]

That is a principled and ethical position to hold. Good on you.


Nevertheless I disagree. National public radio IMHO falls into the category of the Arts - like the NZ Ballet, NZ Symphony Orchestra, live theatre, painting and sculpture etc. William Shakespeare for example would never have been able to perform his plays without the financial support of rich people.

For centuries the Arts (particularly live theatre) has only thrived because of patronage ie. money from Kings, Popes, and other wealthy supporters. Plays and art galleries which actually make money are rare.

I think NZ would be a poorer place if we lost Kim Hill, Geoff Robinson, Jim Mora, and Mary Wilson (though she makes my teeth grate ) etc. National Radio is the only place to find depth interviews, interesting people, and any topic under the sun being covered. The cost to the taxpayer is small when we consider the Rugby World Cup amd America's Cup spending.

Part of living in a community is accepting that we all contribute to a common good and ultimately all benefit. I listen to National Radio a lot, but watch almost no TV yet some of my taxes go towards TVNZ.

The worst part of losing National Radio is we would lose one of the last remaining public forums where the political elites and businesses can be called to account, and unlike TV it's a medium where a 30 minute interview is normal. TV is all about soundbites that fit within the ad breaks and because TV is commercial they have to entertain or they lose their audience. National radio does not have to keep an audience so if 80% of their listeners turn off because what they're listening to is over their heads, angers them etc, it doesn't matter. It really is the last bastion of solid investigative journalism.

[Oscar]

Good at propaganda? Probably, I've worked for many years in marketing and PR which is also why I am pretty good at seeing when it's being used.

The thing is mate, there are groups and individuals out there, some shadowey and some not, that work bloody hard to influence people and control their behaviour. Some (most) of them are businesses and their goal is to make people feel a certain way about them and their products and change their buying behaviour, some are industry groups, some are lobby groups, some political groups and sometimes you even get grand coalitions. They have learnt that they're most effective when they're subtle or even invisible because if you change what someone feels you have significantly better results than if you merely point out the facts and lay the data on the table. And my use of the epiphet puppet master was an intentional strategy to get a response.

As for calling Quasi naive, silly or stupid - I called him naive but not silly or stupid because he's not stupid and probably no more silly than you or I (although I struggle for better words to describe someone who hates all Somalis for the sole reason they're from Somalia). However based on his posts I would have to describe him as politically naive and he often chooses to accept a viewpoint without having looked beyond the superficial and appears to see no reason to back his opinion with facts.

Everyone is pushing their own barrow and provided they stay within the law I have no problem with it. Just because some business leaders have more acess to the PM than you do, doesn't make it a conspiracy (anymore than union leaders having more access to the previous regime).

I think my point stands however - you can't complain about propaganda in a statement where you indulge in it yourself.

[Oscar]

That is a principled and ethical position to hold. Good on you.


Nevertheless I disagree. National public radio IMHO falls into the category of the Arts - like the NZ Ballet, NZ Symphony Orchestra, live theatre, painting and sculpture etc. William Shakespeare for example would never have been able to perform his plays without the financial support of rich people.

For centuries the Arts (particularly live theatre) has only thrived because of patronage ie. money from Kings, Popes, and other wealthy supporters. Plays and art galleries which actually make money are rare.

I think NZ would be a poorer place if we lost Kim Hill, Geoff Robinson, Jim Mora, and Mary Wilson (though she makes my teeth grate ) etc. National Radio is the only place to find depth interviews, interesting people, and any topic under the sun being covered. The cost to the taxpayer is small when we consider the Rugby World Cup amd America's Cup spending.

The supporters of Arts in history have generally been individuals, not taxpayers.
The problem with a National Broadcasting system is that there are no solid boundaries. If you have National Radio, why not State TV? And if you have those two, what about a State newspaper? A government imposed local music quota? This is a slippery slope.

For my own part, I buy the Arts Channel and Rialto, and now I reflect on it, these two organisations are as worthy of Govt. funding as Nat. Radio or Concert Radio would you not agree?

To put is succinctly, funding for the arts tends to fall into the control of the elite be it Govt funded or not, and with very few exceptions what's produced is for the elite. So let the elite pay for it.

.

[shrub]

Everyone is pushing their own barrow and provided they stay within the law I have no problem with it. Just because some business leaders have more acess to the PM than you do, doesn't make it a conspiracy (anymore than union leaders having more access to the previous regime).

I think my point stands however - you can't complain about propaganda in a statement where you indulge in it yourself.

I wasn't actually complaining about it, merely observing that it is widespread and is effective in manipulating and controlling people. I also never mentioned any conspiracies or access by anyone to the PM.

BTW the business community have pretty mixed feelings about Key and a lot of people feel he is "tinkering around the edges" with a common view that he is a transactional rather than transformational leader. Based on what I have seen I would have to agree. A lot of people are hoping that he will grow into his role because that's what we need right now and the only person in the National Caucus I would have picked as a better option is Simon Power.

It's funny, there is this common perception that politics is a binary of left or right and that one is either one or the other, but that is no longer true because as society has become more complex, politics has evolved to fit which means the model doesn't work any more. I have noticed that when you look at them objectively, many policies of the current Nats are very left wing and the Greens have policies that sit within what would once have been a very right wing ideology. But despite that, we still fall back on the old myth that "right wing is good for business and the economy and left wing is good for the poor and the downtrodden and bad for business" and "National are for the bosses while Labour are for the workers". All of which is utter bollocks.

We depend on these constructs because it gives us the ability to label and identify people and groups which makes it easy to place ourselves relative to them based on the labels we adopt. Personally I call myself a lefty/greeny because that's an easy answer, but the reality is in some ways I stand to the right of Don Brash and personally I don't give a fuck about dolphins or snails and shit. But at the same time I think our environment is a priceless asset we cannot afford to squander and that we need to have an inclusive society that looks after everyone.

[Oscar]

I wasn't actually complaining about it, merely observing that it is widespread and is effective in manipulating and controlling people. I also never mentioned any conspiracies or access by anyone to the PM.

No you didn't mention conspiracies or access to the PM - in fact you don't say much at all. You did say ..amorphous group of ever changing individuals and groups.. and then refer to a "Puppet Master", which sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Be there or conspiracy or no, using language like that is classic propaganda. On other boards (AdvRider for example), anyone using nebulous language like that to make unsubstantiated allegations would have been robustly challenged to provide proof, but my experience of Kiwibiker is that slogans are shouted left and right, but never explained.

So why don't you become the exception here? Tell us who makes up these amorphous groups, and expose the puppet master.