Who will win the 2011 election?

**shrub** · 21st July 2011, 10:42

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

Why do people need to be rich? In the New Zealand I grew up in ecveryone wanted to be comfortabe - to own their own home, to have children who went to school and got an education and got a good job. I think it was Austin Mitchell who said "everyone in New Zealand wants to be middle classs - even the rich"

People need to be rich because we are shown images of the rich and told this is what we are to ascribe to. Some years ago I approached a local businessman by the name of John Harrington to do some marketing work for him. He was in the smoko room doing the dishes and asked "why do I need to do marketing"

My response was "to make more money", and his answer has stuck with me ever since. "What do I need more money for? A man can only eat and drink so much and I do too much of both". He sold his beer very cheaply because he wanted to brew a good beer at a fair price that anyone could afford. I notice that over the years his branding has lifted with his prices, so I suspect John is no longer at the helm.

John's comment has influenced me to this day and I could earn a hell of a lot more than I do, but I would rather work 1 -2 days a week and study the rest of the time because I earn enough to buy beer, run a bike and eat.

**Indiana_Jones** · 21st July 2011, 10:45

Originally Posted by shrub

John's comment has influenced me to this day and I could earn a hell of a lot more than I do, but I would rather work 1 -2 days a week and study the rest of the time because I earn enough to buy beer, run a bike and eat.

Ah, but that depends on what bike and beer you like

-Indy

**shrub** · 21st July 2011, 10:49

Originally Posted by Indiana_Jones

Ah, but that depends on what bike and beer you like

My Thunderbird, an aging BMW and my preference is for the masterpieces created by the various boutique brewers like Epic, Stoke, Renaissance, Three Boys etc. Sadly come registration day now that I have 2 bikes I will need to work more. Bloody National government and their stealth taxes...

**Banditbandit** · 21st July 2011, 10:51

Originally Posted by Indiana_Jones

Ah, but that depends on what bike and beer you like

-Indy

No - that depends on what the capitalist advertising industry and other consciousness industries has convinced you you like ...

**Indiana_Jones** · 21st July 2011, 11:10

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

No - that depends on what the capitalist advertising industry and other consciousness industries has convinced you you like ...

Well I'm yet to see much advertising for 'Old Speckled Hen' & Abbot Ale in NZ lol

-Indy

**shrub** · 21st July 2011, 11:51

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

No - that depends on what the capitalist advertising industry and other consciousness industries has convinced you you like ...

Fuck you're a cynic. Pity you're right though - mmmm Tui, brewed in Maingatanoka and the preferred drop of students and young men throughout NZ.

**superman** · 21st July 2011, 12:32

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

I sit a lot further left - probably even more than Shrub. I think that if the cleaner has no ability to be anything other than a cleaner, then yes, they should be paid somthing similar to the doctor. Both contribute to society in important and necessary roles - why should there be a huge difference in pay? Both are exercising their skills for the benefit of society - why should there be a vast difference in pay?

Imagine the issues of trying to work out peoples peak abilities. I don't think low-skilled jobs would exist in such a model. I would see companies hiring all those of higher ability, and giving them 30 minutes of cleaning to do per day as well as their standard job rather than also having a cleaner. Low skilled work would cease to exist, and then those with actual low ability would be screwed. Companies would just integrate jobs together, spreading menial tasks around.

**Banditbandit** · 21st July 2011, 12:48

Originally Posted by superman

Imagine the issues of trying to work out peoples peak abilities. I don't think low-skilled jobs would exist in such a model. I would see companies hiring all those of higher ability, and giving them 30 minutes of cleaning to do per day as well as their standard job rather than also having a cleaner. Low skilled work would cease to exist, and then those with actual low ability would be screwed. Companies would just integrate jobs together, spreading menial tasks around.

No .. see .. you're imagining it within a Capitalist democracy .. you need to imagine it within a whole different system. No such things as companies - EVERTHING is owned by the state, which works for the benefit of its citizens (right now the state asks us to work for the benefit of the state and the economy) ...

It takes a major mindshift ... (and human nature being what it is it's not likely to happen ...)

I'm too much an anarchist to like it and I would fight a communist revolution ...

**mashman** · 21st July 2011, 12:48

Originally Posted by shrub

I don't fit in any left-right boxes, but then not many people really do. Socialism and libertarianism are not mutually exclusive and according to the Political Compass I am Economic Left/Right: -7.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.36 which puts me similar to Nelson Mandela (only not as famous). It's a pretty interesting tool.

Seems like I'm alongside the Dalai Lama...

Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08

go figure

**superman** · 21st July 2011, 12:59

Fuck me that's a surprise.

Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.56

**Banditbandit** · 21st July 2011, 13:02

Originally Posted by shrub

I don't fit in any left-right boxes, but then not many people really do. Socialism and libertarianism are not mutually exclusive and according to the Political Compass I am Economic Left/Right: -7.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.36 which puts me similar to Nelson Mandela (only not as famous). It's a pretty interesting tool.

I've seen the left/right authoritarian/libertarian axis before .. but I never seen this web page before ...

Strangely enough I came out on the extreme left (economic -9.38) (surprise surprise) but about half way down the Libertarian scale .. (Social -5.38) I thought I'd be lower than that on the libertarian side ..

I like this dual axis analysis .. I've used in in other political discussion groups ... it brings out the similarities, say between Hilter and Stralin, and the differences ... say between Stalin and Ghandi ..

**Banditbandit** · 21st July 2011, 13:03

Originally Posted by superman

Fuck me that's a surprise.

Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.56

So .. you are not who you think you are .. your Libertarian slant does not surprise me tho' ... the economic one does. We agree more than you think ..

**Banditbandit** · 21st July 2011, 13:05

Originally Posted by mashman

Seems like I'm alongside the Dalai Lama...

Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08

go figure

You freedom-lovin' biker you ... (with a bit of a scoail conscience)

**shrub** · 21st July 2011, 13:12

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

So .. you are not who you think you are .. your Libertarian slant does not surprise me tho' ... the economic one does. We agree more than you think ..

Something I have learned over the years is that people often think they are something they're not. I have a mate who was a died in the wool National supporter and right wing, libertarian etc until we started to discuss economics and politics and took the labels out and simply discussed the concepts. It turned out that his understanding of socialism was based on what he had been fed and all his life he had believed socialism was about taking money from people who had earned it and giving it to people who couldn't be bothered and removing freedom of choice.

He is now a paid up member of the Green party.