Who will win the 2011 election?

[Usarka]

You can trust a white South African more than a jew...

http://www.stormfront.org/jewish/antisemite.html

Bro, your going down a path of hate. Step back, smoke a spliff and chill out before you get all bitter and twisted and end up in the slammer getting anal reamed for bashing an asian.

[rainman]

Like most kiwis I'd rather vote for a jew than a south african!

That's just because lots of Kiwis are actually somewhat parochial and racist.

[BMWST?]

whilst mmp has its faults i think its the best mechanism to get a representative PARLIAMENT.A good parliament should create a good GOVERNMENT.So the whole idea of MMP is to vote for the PARTY to give the PARLIAMENT of your choice.In this way you could even have a National led government who WONT sell assets....

Most other electoral systems dont really acheive real representation ,maybe a tweaked version of supplementary member.Any system has got to be SIMPLE.
So the great unwashed out there should be very considerate with the party vote,not just dish it out to who they are told to

[Robert Taylor]

whilst mmp has its faults i think its the best mechanism to get a representative PARLIAMENT.A good parliament should create a good GOVERNMENT.So the whole idea of MMP is to vote for the PARTY to give the PARLIAMENT of your choice.In this way you could even have a National led government who WONT sell assets....

Most other electoral systems dont really acheive real representation ,maybe a tweaked version of supplementary member.Any system has got to be SIMPLE.
So the great unwashed out there should be very considerate with the party vote,not just dish it out to who they are told to

And Governments are notoriously bad at managing assets...........

[oldrider]

And Governments are notoriously bad at managing assets...........

True! Because they manage them for political advantage first rather than for good sound business reasoning .... ACC for instance!

[rainman]

And Governments are notoriously bad at managing assets...........

Um, no, that's utter crap. Governments the world over are the primary custodians and managers of shedloads of public infrastructure, and by and large they do a good job of it. What's more, the private sector couldn't do a better job in most cases.

Most government agencies deal with complicated workstreams and problems with long term goals, complex drivers, rich data, and difficult "soft" outcomes. Your average business is just figuring out how to flog a few more widgets next quarter. Not even in the same league.

[Winston001]

Um, no, that's utter crap. Governments the world over are the primary custodians and managers of shedloads of public infrastructure, and by and large they do a good job of it. What's more, the private sector couldn't do a better job in most cases.

Most government agencies deal with complicated workstreams and problems with long term goals, complex drivers, rich data, and difficult "soft" outcomes. Your average business is just figuring out how to flog a few more widgets next quarter. Not even in the same league.

Yes. It was de rigour economics in the 1980s that governments couldn't efficiently run businesses and own substantial assets. Then the business economy collapsed in October 1987 - and again in 2007 - ironically leaving governments to carry the load.

FWIW I don't believe governments are effective owners of specific businesses but there comes a point when the commonwealth is better served by state control. For example, Max Bradford's electricity reforms were high minded ideals but never the best for a long narrow mountainous group of islands. We need single comprehensive electricity generation and reticulation in the national interest.

[Ocean1]

Um, no, that's utter crap. Governments the world over are the primary custodians and managers of shedloads of public infrastructure, and by and large they do a good job of it. What's more, the private sector couldn't do a better job in most cases.

Most government agencies deal with complicated workstreams and problems with long term goals, complex drivers, rich data, and difficult "soft" outcomes. Your average business is just figuring out how to flog a few more widgets next quarter. Not even in the same league.

No, that's absolutely correct.

Oh I know plenty of individual publicly owned business units that perform admirably, but in my experience without exception the policy they work to is hugely wasteful and counterproductive and their governing boards are either political or elected appointies utterly clueless about their industry.

Many privately owned asset management entities are no better for exactly the same reason: Service delivery objectives aligned with politically motivated policy which proclude effective management.

By all means keep ownership of infrastructure in public hands, just make sure you put businessmen in charge who actually know their business, give them clear, obtainable objectives and then stay the fuck out of their way. So, a major improvement required, there.

[rainman]

No, that's absolutely correct.

Oh I know plenty of individual publicly owned business units that perform admirably, but in my experience without exception the policy they work to is hugely wasteful and counterproductive and their governing boards are either political or elected appointies utterly clueless about their industry.

Many privately owned asset management entities are no better for exactly the same reason: Service delivery objectives aligned with politically motivated policy which proclude effective management.

By all means keep ownership of infrastructure in public hands, just make sure you put businessmen in charge who actually know their business, give them clear, obtainable objectives and then stay the fuck out of their way. So, a major improvement required, there.

You are missing my point. NZ businesses are too small and don't last long enough to build the skills required to manage large-scale assets long term. Government bureaucrats, with some continuity of service and yes, a bunch of policies, are able to make a half-arsed decent job of it. Your average 'captain of industry' wouldn't have a friggin clue where to start with managing a component of a decent sized local government operation, let alone something complex like social policy. Look no further than the ATA to find solid examples of the incompetence of business leaders in trying to organise government functions, the whole thing was held together by the team members who where seconded in from the existing councils, while Rodney's mates from industry either sat in their offices and did as little as they could get away with or boldly went out and fucked things up that are doubtless still being unfucked.

This is why Key's much-vaunted business background (such that it is, he was just a trader) isn't worth a know of goat shit in running the economy (double downgrades, anyone?) and the Nats have a do-nothing policy everywhere but tax cuts, state sector austerity, and asset sales. They do nothing because they are out of their depth.

"Clear obtainable objectives" - so, tell me what to do and I'll do a good job? Pfft.

[Ocean1]

...........

Ahhh, nope, can't be fuckt, far too many buzzwords to be coherent.

[oldrider]

You are missing my point. NZ businesses are too small and don't last long enough to build the skills required to manage large-scale assets long term. Government bureaucrats, with some continuity of service and yes, a bunch of policies, are able to make a half-arsed decent job of it. Your average 'captain of industry' wouldn't have a friggin clue where to start with managing a component of a decent sized local government operation, let alone something complex like social policy. Look no further than the ATA to find solid examples of the incompetence of business leaders in trying to organise government functions, the whole thing was held together by the team members who where seconded in from the existing councils, while Rodney's mates from industry either sat in their offices and did as little as they could get away with or boldly went out and fucked things up that are doubtless still being unfucked.

This is why Key's much-vaunted business background (such that it is, he was just a trader) isn't worth a know of goat shit in running the economy (double downgrades, anyone?) and the Nats have a do-nothing policy everywhere but tax cuts, state sector austerity, and asset sales. They do nothing because they are out of their depth.

"Clear obtainable objectives" - so, tell me what to do and I'll do a good job? Pfft.

And all the lefties "can" manage this? ....... Treble Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft!

[rainman]

And all the lefties "can" manage this? .......

Well, they do run a better bureaucracy and tend not to declare are on the civil servants in order to make an ideologcal point.

So, yes. The economy consistently does better under left governments and stagnates under the right

[rainman]

Ahhh, nope, can't be fuckt, far too many buzzwords to be coherent.

Well I can use smaller words if you want. But I suspect the real problem is you're too chicken to challenge your ideology.

[Ocean1]

Well I can use smaller words if you want. But I suspect the real problem is you're too chicken to challenge your ideology.

I don't have an ideology. You can tell, because I don't make the mistake of comparing the management of commercial enterprises with the setting of social policy.

I do have observations. The primary requisite for success with regard to the first is the ability to achieve a wide range of goals. The other is an excercise in marketing theft, the only measurable goal of which is success in purchasing votes.

[rainman]

I don't have an ideology. You can tell, because I don't make the mistake of comparing the management of commercial enterprises with the setting of social policy.

I do have observations. The primary requisite for success with regard to the first is the ability to achieve a wide range of goals. The other is an excercise in marketing theft, the only measurable goal of which is success in purchasing votes.

Oh dear, I am going to have to find the really small words. My point is that the average kiwi business owner is a two-bit small fry unable even to understand most problems addressed by government, let alone derive good long-term goals for these, and strategies to achieve them. Given our business failure rate, even if they were given these missing pieces, a large chunk would fail to deliver them. The job is best done by government, with the business owners sticking to what they do best - moving some more widgets this quarter. (A noble, if humble, goal, one might add).

You have an ideology because you are unwilling to debate (or, I suspect, consider) the truth of this view, because you have been indoctrinated to believe in small government and the atlas-like virtues of our captains of industry. (That's the positive interpretation).

And all politicians who stand a chance of getting elected "purchase" votes. So what?