Who will win the 2011 election?

[Robert Taylor]

I quite like this comment from I/S

Quite so, and in keeping with a philosophy that despises self responsibility

[Winston001]

Quite so, and in keeping with a philosophy that despises self responsibility

It is possible that may be turning. Heard David Parker this morning saying Labour needed to recognise the nation had changed and their voters included mums and dads running corner shops, plumbers etc. He implied that the traditional "cloth cap" Labour voter really didn't exist any more and I think that is true.

Who knows? I remember wondering if National were burned out as a party after the devastating 2002 election loss. Labour could easily bounce back.

I do feel sorry for Phil Goff and am contemptuous of his colleagues trampling over his carcase in unseemly haste.

[rainman]

Labour suffered it's worst defeat ever and here's TV 1 treating them like they had just won the damn thing .... biased lefty bastards!

The news media is full of left wingers.

Clearly you lot must live in a different country to the one I do. There's very little real left wing influence in the media at the best of times, and over the last three years they've all been fawning all over Key at every opportunity anyway.

Any temporary positive attention they give Labour at the moment is a combination of payback for the teapot tapes thing (police raids on the press are not cool), and the fact that Labour are newsworthy at the moment because of the leadership battle. I'm sure the usual poor journalism will return presently.

[oldrider]

Funny thing about Labour is the Forest Gump make up of it's membership, it's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get!

Labour rabbit on about their wonderful (and he was) initial parliamentary leader and Prime minister "Michael Savage" who was, according to my reading about him, a "Social Creditor" monetary reformist back in the days before Social Credit ever became a political party!

Apparently there has always been a core 10% of monetary reformists in the electorate and a group of about 5 were in the original Labour caucus and Labour courted them for the much needed 10% to strengthen their vote!

Once again (according to what my father told me) Labour wasn't so much voted into power as the incumbents were voted out!

Again according to my father (a Labour voter) things were so bad that the electorate would have voted for a strainer post if one had stood against the incumbents, the people were desperate!

In my own experience and I can consciously remember Peter Fraser, who took over when Savage died in office, the Labour party has never really delivered on anything that it has stood for and has been getting less and less of a working man's party ever since the end of WW2!

Personally, my experiences of Labour governments are that anyone that votes for them is due for disappointment when they are elected because they always turn out to be something other than what they promised!

"National, Labour and the media" are in my opinion a coalition by default .... as long as they are the power groups everything will always just be more of the same!

The minor parties are just given enough encouragement to keep the discontents, protesters and free thinkers at bay! (I consider myself to be part of this group)

Are we controlled by intent? IMHO, yes we are!

[oneofsix]

...
"National, Labour and the media" are in my opinion a coalition by default .... as long as they are the power groups everything will always just be more of the same!

The minor parties are just given enough encouragement to keep the discontents, protesters and free thinkers at bay! (I consider myself to be part of this group)

Are we controlled be intent? IMHO, yes we are!

I hate agreeing with people so why make me do it.
Labour didn't really fight this election. The failing leader usually pretends they wanted the party leadership and to win the election at least until the new year.
The losing party, Labour or National never really fight the next election lately, they seem to have an agreement to give the replacements a 6 year minimum.
The media also play this game, they have held back at stabbing at National for the last 3 years preferring instead to pick on Labour but there are now some signs this is changing. Nationals big win wont be doing them any favours with the media as the media like to feel they have control.
When John loses he will be rolled and the next leader will be a caretaker until after the following election.
Who's really in control? $$$ and that is why the party oldrider supported will always be a minor party because its policies would change the way money is controlled.

[oldrider]

I hate agreeing with people so why make me do it.
Labour didn't really fight this election. The failing leader usually pretends they wanted the party leadership and to win the election at least until the new year.
The losing party, Labour or National never really fight the next election lately, they seem to have an agreement to give the replacements a 6 year minimum.
The media also play this game, they have held back at stabbing at National for the last 3 years preferring instead to pick on Labour but there are now some signs this is changing. Nationals big win wont be doing them any favours with the media as the media like to feel they have control.
When John loses he will be rolled and the next leader will be a caretaker until after the following election.
Who's really in control? $$$ and that is why the party oldrider supported will always be a minor party because its policies would change the way money is controlled.

True but actually it would only change the way that "new money" is created (intrest free) and cancelled. (once it has done it's work)

The banking industry does a good enough job of "controlling money", they just should not have the God given right to create and cancel "New" and "old" money!

Currently new money is created as an intrest bearing debt ... is never cancelled and neither is the debt, creating and continuing a cycle of wars booms and busts to do the job that could be done simply by employing a "Social Credit" system and government authority! (The reserve bank!)

Social debt is the lifeblood of the 1% that the 99% are protesting about, I wonder how many of the protesters voted for Democrats for Social Credit?

Or even if they know the difference!

[mashman]

True but actually it would only change the way that "new money" is created (intrest free) and cancelled. (once it has done it's work)

The banking industry does a good enough job of "controlling money", they just should not have the God given right to create and cancel "New" and "old" money!

Currently new money is created as an intrest bearing debt ... is never cancelled and neither is the debt, creating and continuing a cycle of wars booms and busts to do the job that could be done simply by employing a "Social Credit" system and government authority! (The reserve bank!)

Social debt is the lifeblood of the 1% that the 99% are protesting about, I wonder how many of the protesters voted for Democrats for Social Credit?

Or even if they know the difference!

The problem I have, identifying with (not representative of) the 99%, is that Social Credit is just another way of trying to manage money. Financial reward is still employed as a mechanism for keeping people working, well for those who work well (extra credit)... but someone has to define who has worked well and certain jobs will pay more than others, which in turn still leads to there being a 1%. I fail to see how, where money is involved, you don't get a 1%. Perhaps you can fill in my blanks?

They're pretty damn near the top of my list, but for me they just don't go far enough. We know money isn't the answer... or at least I do

[SPman]

Clearly you lot must live in a different country to the one I do. There's very little real left wing influence in the media at the best of times, and over the last three years they've all been fawning all over Key at every opportunity anyway.

But that's so often the way - those of a right leaning, authoritarian belief are very sensitive to the least amount of criticism - indeed, so unused to real, incisive, left leaning comment, that anything taken even a little left of their beliefs, is immediately decried as "lefty bastard media", when, in truth it is usually merely less right wing or centrist. There is very little critical MSM around the world - they all seem to bark to the tune of authority. Any real researched, investigative, incisive crtique is usually downplayed, marginalised or attacked as utter rubbish!
The labour party in NZ (and Australia, especially in Britain), is not a left wing party - only in comparison to Nats, ACT, etc. Even the old style Republican party in the US was more "left wing" in many of it's policies than current ideas. Mana, is an older style left wing party and they are equated to rabid dogs by the media, and many on here - yet a lot of what they say would be very familiar to old time Labour men.

Some of my favourite Jefferson quotes...

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

How can statements 200 years old be relevant? Because human nature being what it is, there will always be those who desire power and control over everyone else and there will always be those who will assist - actively or by acquiescence. And no, I'm not talking about people who desire to earn themselves a comfortable living through their hard work - become "rich", even. That seems to be a convenient diversion by those who haven't really thought things through. The corruption that inevitably ensues when people use their "wealth", to buy more wealth through "influencing" the objectives of an elected government away from "what's good for the community they represent", to, "what's good for the business or the pocket of the wealthy doing the influencing and the wealth and power of those meant to be in charge", is where it all starts to get nasty.

Hopefully, there will also always be those who tell them to get fucked!

[Robert Taylor]

Clearly you lot must live in a different country to the one I do. There's very little real left wing influence in the media at the best of times, and over the last three years they've all been fawning all over Key at every opportunity anyway.

Any temporary positive attention they give Labour at the moment is a combination of payback for the teapot tapes thing (police raids on the press are not cool), and the fact that Labour are newsworthy at the moment because of the leadership battle. I'm sure the usual poor journalism will return presently.

So why didnt the news media pursue the co-ordinated defacing of over 700 National party billboards? Of course none of those who did so had any association with the Green party or left wing sympathies. I bet I also know what the politics are of the cameraman who deliberately placed that tape recorder on the table.

Our local paper ( Taranaki Daily News ) clearly has a leftwards slant. Anyway, there are 3 countries in NZ, Auckland, Invercargill and the rest of the country.

[shrub]

Clearly you lot must live in a different country to the one I do. There's very little real left wing influence in the media at the best of times, and over the last three years they've all been fawning all over Key at every opportunity anyway.

Any temporary positive attention they give Labour at the moment is a combination of payback for the teapot tapes thing (police raids on the press are not cool), and the fact that Labour are newsworthy at the moment because of the leadership battle. I'm sure the usual poor journalism will return presently.

The right have always squealed about the evil left wing media, and probably always will. One reason they do this is because many of the new-right ideologies are so deeply flawed, and anyone who actually looks at them objectively is going to criticise them. Rather than respond to those criticisms with robust arguments they throw their toys out of the cot and whine "it's not fair, the media are all lefties".

A few years ago I did a media studies degree at Canterbury, and that involved spending a lot of time studying the media and how they operate, so I probably know more about the subject than most people here. What they probably haven't stopped to consider is that the media are overwhelmingly owned by the right (big business) and more significantly, depend on the business sector for advertising revenue, so it would be illogical and stupid to piss off the guys paying your wages by demonstrating bias. Only problem is, logic is not something the right pay much attention to. Hell, if they did they might find some of their most dearly held beliefs just don't work.

I find it mildly amusing that even though I challenge the arguments of most of the right whingers on this site, very few of them ever challenge me back or even attempt to counter my arguments. I sometimes wonder why because I make an effort to be polite and reasonable.

[shrub]

So why didnt the news media pursue the co-ordinated defacing of over 700 National party billboards? Of course none of those who did so had any association with the Green party or left wing sympathies.

Because the people who did it admitted it and the Green party had nothing to do with it. Look at the entire campaign of the Greens, and they played by the rules and didn't engage in slagging matches. They had a lot of success with that strategy because people believed them, so why on earth would they knowingly be part of something that was in direct contradiction with everything else they were doing, would gain few if any votes and was likely to sink the party? It's just illogical.

I bet I also know what the politics are of the cameraman who deliberately placed that tape recorder on the table.

OK, what are they? You say you know, and knowing implies a high degree of certainty that you would probably only have if you were personally acquainted with said cameraman, or at the least people who know him well. Or is your "knowledge" based on the fact that you don't like what he did? Or that all journalists are lefties?

Our local paper ( Taranaki Daily News ) clearly has a leftwards slant.

Oh? How do you know? Do you know the editorial policies of the paper? Do you know who owns the paper? Have you conducted any content analysis? Or do you simply believe that because sometimes they say things you don't agree with?

yes, quite.

[Robert Taylor]

Because the people who did it admitted it and the Green party had nothing to do with it. Look at the entire campaign of the Greens, and they played by the rules and didn't engage in slagging matches. They had a lot of success with that strategy because people believed them, so why on earth would they knowingly be part of something that was in direct contradiction with everything else they were doing, would gain few if any votes and was likely to sink the party? It's just illogical.



OK, what are they? You say you know, and knowing implies a high degree of certainty that you would probably only have if you were personally acquainted with said cameraman, or at the least people who know him well. Or is your "knowledge" based on the fact that you don't like what he did? Or that all journalists are lefties?



Oh? How do you know? Do you know the editorial policies of the paper? Do you know who owns the paper? Have you conducted any content analysis? Or do you simply believe that because sometimes they say things you don't agree with?

yes, quite.

How many people were involved in the clearly co-ordinated defacing of 700 National party billboards? How many owned up? How many were Green party activists? I suspect quite a few.

If that cameraman had any sincerity in his claim that it was a ''mistake to leave it on that table'' AND TURNED ON he would have erased the recording as a courtesy. By seeking court action he was clearly agin the National Party and the new MP for Epsom.

In socialist households left sympathetic newspapers would appear to be very agreeable, If you saw how our Taranaki Daily News sucked up to Andrew Little it was sickening. Didnt do him much good though in terms of candidate vote where he took a huge pasting, thankfully. He is now though an unelected list MP because of the stupid electoral system we have.

It doesnt take a rocket scienctist to get a feel for the frequency of socialist rant. Now that they are so wounded BECAUSE THEY DIDNT WIN I expect the noise will be greater

[shrub]

How many people were involved in the clearly co-ordinated defacing of 700 National party billboards? How many owned up? How many were Green party activists? I suspect quite a few.

You suspect - what evidence do you base that suspicion on?

If that cameraman had any sincerity in his claim that it was a ''mistake to leave it on that table'' AND TURNED ON he would have erased the recording as a courtesy. By seeking court action he was clearly agin the National Party and the new MP for Epsom.

he probably listened to it and heard something that was highly contentious. As a member of the media his job is to put the spotlight on politicians, so he was doing his job. You would have loved it if it had been Phil Goff and Russel Norman being taped, only I doubt they are stupid enough to say anything dodgy in a setting like that.

In socialist households left sympathetic newspapers would appear to be very agreeable, If you saw how our Taranaki Daily News sucked up to Andrew Little it was sickening. Didnt do him much good though in terms of candidate vote where he took a huge pasting, thankfully. He is now though an unelected list MP because of the stupid electoral system we have.

So you didn't like them saying nice things about someone you don't like. That would make them an organ of communist propaganda.

It doesnt take a rocket scienctist to get a feel for the frequency of socialist rant. Now that they are so wounded BECAUSE THEY DIDNT WIN I expect the noise will be greater

What determines text being socialist? The fact you disagree with it? Or do they use terms like proletariat and call people comrade?

[oldrider]

OK shrub you and Goff gave it your best shot, can respect that but all you got out of it was a massive fail and rejection from your own voters!

Learn to live with it and move on! ..... maybe vote Green - the new red!

[Brian d marge]

Have they sold the forests , yet ? sorry been bust , and its at least a week into the new government

Stephen

oh just heard the Moaris will buy them ...all good then