Moto Academy NZ - Red Bull MotoGP Rookies Cup selection spot

[steveyb]

Probably because you you put it on kiwibiker which is just full of dickheads and wanabees i suspect

Yep probably, but the dickheads and wannabees tell two friends and they tell two friends etc etc
I thought the grapevine would get things moving at least.

[oyster]

To get a youngster ready for Red Bull would take a couple of years of good hard close racing with their peers in Streetstock or similar. Dan Mettam made a massive improvement over the SI national ('10) rounds under guidance of Wolf Pack. I have seen this pattern many times with young NZ riders in recent years. The problem is they are starting too late, so this competency comes thru at about age 16 /17.
Yes, maybe convert some little hard charging motocrossers, but I've seen plenty of them as well, and they take about a year. And all this is based on riding around 10 - 15 times a year as a minimum.

The idea they get bad habits in Streetstock is rubbish. They only get bad habits if their is no leadership / coaching

Hafiq coming to NZ was a disgrace. He was a dangerous rider with no idea on what was right. It was sad he crashed out so fast, but in a way it was fortunate he did as he would have inevitably wiped out some other innocent rider. The idea of taking
habitual crashers and taming them is completely wrong. Let's remember two children have died in the USA in recent years on 125's. The risk is too great

The reason there are no takers for Steve's offer is simple, there is no developed feeder group for this elite opportunity. Just plucking an unknown rider out the "cabbage patch" at short notice will never work.

[Billy]

To get a youngster ready for Red Bull would take a couple of years of good hard close racing with their peers in Streetstock or similar. Dan Mettam made a massive improvement over the SI national ('10) rounds under guidance of Wolf Pack. I have seen this pattern many times with young NZ riders in recent years. The problem is they are starting too late, so this competency comes thru at about age 16 /17.
Yes, maybe convert some little hard charging motocrossers, but I've seen plenty of them as well, and they take about a year. And all this is based on riding around 10 - 15 times a year as a minimum.

The idea they get bad habits in Streetstock is rubbish. They only get bad habits if their is no leadership / coaching

Hafiq coming to NZ was a disgrace. He was a dangerous rider with no idea on what was right. It was sad he crashed out so fast, but in a way it was fortunate he did as he would have inevitably wiped out some other innocent rider. The idea of taking
habitual crashers and taming them is completely wrong. Let's remember two children have died in the USA in recent years on 125's. The risk is too great

The reason there are no takers for Steve's offer is simple, there is no developed feeder group for this elite opportunity. Just plucking an unknown rider out the "cabbage patch" at short notice will never work.

Here here,Couldnt have put it better myself,ATLEAST one season at National level in the streetstock class,Anything else is just a waste of everybodys time and money.

[SWERVE]

To get a youngster ready for Red Bull would take a couple of years of good hard close racing with their peers in Streetstock or similar. Dan Mettam made a massive improvement over the SI national ('10) rounds under guidance of Wolf Pack. I have seen this pattern many times with young NZ riders in recent years. The problem is they are starting too late, so this competency comes thru at about age 16 /17.
Yes, maybe convert some little hard charging motocrossers, but I've seen plenty of them as well, and they take about a year. And all this is based on riding around 10 - 15 times a year as a minimum.

The idea they get bad habits in Streetstock is rubbish. They only get bad habits if their is no leadership / coaching

Hafiq coming to NZ was a disgrace. He was a dangerous rider with no idea on what was right. It was sad he crashed out so fast, but in a way it was fortunate he did as he would have inevitably wiped out some other innocent rider. The idea of taking
habitual crashers and taming them is completely wrong. Let's remember two children have died in the USA in recent years on 125's. The risk is too great

The reason there are no takers for Steve's offer is simple, there is no developed feeder group for this elite opportunity. Just plucking an unknown rider out the "cabbage patch" at short notice will never work.

+1 Agree with ya Pete (and i quite often dont)

[steveyb]

qwerty qwerty

[RobGassit]

There are more than a few legends who haven't even ridden a GP bike Steve. You make it sound like you think racers with only Production Bike experience are unskilled. How about giving an example of a bad habit that a production rider will have according to Mr Clifford?

[steveyb]

qwerty qwerty

[RobGassit]

Fair enough, but perhaps name some of them, from the modern era even from the past eras for that matter.

Slight springs to mind. But he tested at GP and wasn't able to make the step for whatever reason, and some of those were not down to his abilities, which I think personally, were up to it.

The Irish/British road racers also spring to mind, but many of them have ridden 500's around the TT and they are specialists who wouldn't go to GP even if they had the opportunity.

Consider if those names wanted to race at the highest levels and didn't quite make it. Most of the legends that I can think of have raced at the highest level.

Two of the worst habits that racing Production only breeds are poor throttle control and not so great bike set up skills as Production bikes have a wider operational range than GP bikes do.

A great number of the current and past top riders from NZ have raced 250 Production (which is production, but a bit different to the bikes we have now), 125GP, 250GP and 500GP.

No, GP is not the be all and end all, but it is not call the Big Prize for nothing.

I wonder what riders are leading the World Superbike Champs at the moment?
Checa, Biaggi, Melandri, Laverty, Haslam, Guintoli, Haga, Smrz, Corser, Hopkins (not leading, but flying) etc have all raced GP at the highest level. The other current riders are hardly "legends".

Even, God forbid, Foggarty, rode GP bikes!

Oh, and I am not Peters mouthpiece, but he runs Rookies Cup, is part of the selection process, and has a pretty fair record as a GP team manager, don't you agree?

You asked......

Well I can see how throttle control is not as well learn't on a Proddy with little power. Fair enough. Hence the Flat track/ Dirt riding experience of top racers,Stoner/Hayden. Kenny Roberts can teach you that on an XR100 in a flat paddock though.
Troy Bayliss and Mick Doohan did ok!

[steveyb]

azerty azerty

[RobGassit]

Happy to have convinced you of the virtue of my arguement.

Can't imagine Kenny Roberts teaching me or anyone else around here though. It is a pretty exclusive club that gets that treatment, and certainly not on an XR100.
And last time I looked Troy Bayliss learned his road art on 250 Proddy and 250GP bikes and Doohan stepped up to 500GP really quickly.

Yes, but the whole point is they started on Production bikes and developed on larger Production bikes. I can only presume that with some divine intervention they overcame their bad habits. They know how to set up a bike too. And don't look now, but 2 stroke GP bikes are dead and buried, and Diesel pilots unfortunately are the future. You're in danger of being extinct dude. Claiming rule in MOTOGP proddy 1000 engines, MOTO2 600 proddy engines, MOTO3 250 dirt bike engines. It's a whole new world.

And Kenny Roberts snr used Honda XR100's on his training camps. I shit you not.

[steveyb]

azerty azerty

[RobGassit]

I never have argued 2-stroke GP bikes.
I have argued GP bikes.

If you think Rob, that a 1000cc MotoGP bike or a Moto 2 bike is in any way the same (other than having two wheels and the same capacity engine) as a production race bike then you are gravely mistaken. They are NOT proddy engines, based maybe, but it is the bike as a whole that makes the package. Don't see many people racing an engine around the track.

Listen to the comments made by all of the riders who come from Superbike/Supersport onto GP bikes. It is completely another world.

You stirrer, over and out.

Wooden spoon put away. I apologise for any offence taken by mad ramblings made late at night.

[oyster]

Great thread and a big ups to Steve. I admire your commitment and effort.
The reply was so long Robert Taylor would be proud of it! I won't go on too long, but a few things might be misunderstood..

I spoke to Peter Clifford at Teretonga, He wanted to talk more at Ruapuna but he didn't show. I didn't get the same feedback re Streetstock that you portray. He lives in a world of elite and has a salary (employment contract!) the revolves around sales of an international energy drink. His thinking is sincere re what we are doing, but he can't escape his focus. (Which is not the same as ours)

My comment about Dan is nothing about the bike he sat on, it's all about the 9 days over 3 weeks on 3 circuits being pushed to the limit by 20 other kids on the same gear. Plus proper support / coaching. When I met him in the NI he was getting none of this so that's why I convinced them to come down.

I've ridden, raced and coached on 150's for nearly 10 years, plus seen 100, maybe 200 learn their competencies on them. Many have gone on to NZ title status. They are very good! I stand by my statements! Similar to 20yrs ago when 250Proddy spawned a whole generation of high acheivers, their bikes were just a bit faster and the riders on average a bit older.

Re Hafiq. To say a stepthru is a Streetstock is a bad habit disaster is not quite right....
Read his current Red Bull blogs, he's still crashing like crazy and getting nowhere. Sadly, soon an injury will finish it all. Crazy. I've coached a few like this and they can be "fixed" He was only fleetingly fast because of the "monkey see monkey do " effect where they copy others and ride well beyond the safe boundaries. I've fixed a few of them in my time too.
I spent plenty of time on the Levels banks and on top of the dunnies at Teretonga watching him. I know what I was seeing
Maybe he's following the Marc Marquez bin it or win route. And it's working for Marc for sure. But it's hell of risk and I sure wouldn't be comfortable with encouraging it. See my earlier statement about the two children killed in the USA. I met one of these in New Hampshire and he impressed me so much. So it shocked me

You are right, I am wrong. Yes you might find another Arthur Sissis in NZ but it needs proper promotion and recruitment

[gav]

I never have argued 2-stroke GP bikes.
I have argued GP bikes.

You can read into what I write whatever you want. Bayliss raced 250GP in Australia before anyone had heard of him on Superbike Doohan learned most of his skill on the 500, his superbike career was very short.

Huh? Troy Bayliss rode 1 250GP race as a wild card, when he was a Suzuki Superbike rider in Aus. He started racing on a ZXR750, before getting onto a 250 Proddy then a 600.
Mick Doohan started out on Proddy bikes, TZR250 and a RZ500 before riding a four stroke Superbike in Oz, he raced as a wildcard in some WSBK rounds and these results got him a ride on a GP500.
John Hopkins (who you mention) went from racing four stroke proddy based bikes in the States onto a RedBull YZR500.
The thing all these guys had in common is they grew up riding on dirt, and learnt throttle control, balance etc there.
And yes Kenny Roberts has always used XR100's in his training camps, including Jorge Lorenzo not so long ago.
Alot of the young Italians etc started out on minimotos, probably alot less tuning etc available on them than a Streetstock bike?
Hmmm, wonder how many laps Ben Spies has done on a 125GP bike?