Stupid World

[Ocean1]

I mean, why on EARTH would you post opinions not remotely like your own unless you were just trolling?

To balance an extreme opinion presented as fact.

With roughly the same authority.

[Ocean1]

How can something that's made out of nothing & doesn't exist in physical form be finite???

Perhaps because it represents cold hard assets, which are finite.

All it takes to produce more is say so, hell Zimbabwe did it for years

Yes. Did their asset base increase? No. So what they were really doing is reducing the value of the dollars in circulation.

Yea cept there's studies & I believe a country calling that BS... People are more productive doing things they love, admittedly some people do enjoy working for the dollar but most are more productive in positions they actually enjoy; in-fact alot working for the dollar are probably the least productive to society

I'm as productive as fuck in my hobby time too. But I'm not labouring under the illusion that's benefiting anyone other than me, and unfortunately I have to eat. Which is why spend time making stuff that keep my clients happy enough to keep paying me.

So you're right, reward doesn't have to be financial. But if you ever want something you can't make for yourself you'd better find a way to make something someone else wants, eh? Whether you enjoy the work or not.

[mashman]

Exactly, what we pay for is there, what we can't pay for is not, it's a resource shortage.

Not pushing it, This is what mstriumph picked up on, you clearly are pushing it, yet favor the wealy approach of moving goalposts rather actually putting together a reasoned argument.

Science works with samples. You're fucking deluded if you think there's a significant portion of society willing to get rid of the financial system in favor of one you've just admitted is not ready.

What we can't pay for is there too. Go to any "store" and they've always got stuff in. There is, at the moment, no resource shortage. There is resource wastage though.

I'm not pushing it, I'm throwing out on A forum and am learning from the experience. That you don't accept the argument doesn't make it unreasoned. Where's the goalpost shift?

Science works with samples and still gets things "wrong". You're fuckin deluded if you think that a significant portion of society wouldn't choose A NOW as an alternative to the financial system... and given that it has failed to tackle the major issues of the Take day over millennia, I find it laughable that you believe it to be a solid foundation. As a scientific sample, the financial system would have been arsed a thousand years ago. Just because I say it isn't ready does not mean that it won't work. Like most scientific discoveries (analogy, not direct comparison, coz I know you're funny that way) there are certain things that you know will work.

[Scuba_Steve]

Perhaps because it represents cold hard assets, which are finite.

How far back are you living? It USED to represent "cold hard assets" like over 60yrs ago back when it was gold bonds, now it represents nothing more than numbers on a sheet

Yes. Did their asset base increase? No. So what they were really doing is reducing the value of the dollars in circulation.

But they did prove it's not a finite resource & can just continue to be produced out of nothing

I'm as productive as fuck in my hobby time too. But I'm not labouring under the illusion that's benefiting anyone other than me, and unfortunately I have to eat. Which is why spend time making stuff that keep my clients happy enough to keep paying me.

So you're right, reward doesn't have to be financial. But if you ever want something you can't make for yourself you'd better find a way to make something someone else wants, eh? Whether you enjoy the work or not.

But you're never going to be as productive working for a price point rather then something you love & that was the original point.

[bogan]

What we can't pay for is there too. Go to any "store" and they've always got stuff in. There is, at the moment, no resource shortage. There is resource wastage though.

I'm not pushing it, I'm throwing out on A forum and am learning from the experience. That you don't accept the argument doesn't make it unreasoned. Where's the goalpost shift?

Science works with samples and still gets things "wrong". You're fuckin deluded if you think that a significant portion of society wouldn't choose A NOW as an alternative to the financial system... and given that it has failed to tackle the major issues of the Take day over millennia, I find it laughable that you believe it to be a solid foundation. As a scientific sample, the financial system would have been arsed a thousand years ago. Just because I say it isn't ready does not mean that it won't work. Like most scientific discoveries (analogy, not direct comparison, coz I know you're funny that way) there are certain things that you know will work.

Um, you know that store has to pay the producer for those goods right? Just cos you can't afford em doesn't mean they have not been paid for. Comments like that make your approach seem ignorant and selfish, so you may want to think about the bigger picture in future.

Well, enjoy your delusions then, I'll eat all my money if it ever happens within my lifetime though.

[Ocean1]

How far back are you living? It USED to represent "cold hard assets" like over 60yrs ago back when it was gold bonds, now it represents nothing more than numbers on a sheet.

Show me some money other than savings that doesn't represent an asset.

But they did prove it's not a finite resource & can just continue to be produced out of nothing.

It's not a resource at all. You can print it all you fucking like and it'll still not be a resource.

But you're never going to be as productive working for a price point rather then something you love & that was the original point.

It was my point. And the point was that the world doesn't give a fuck whether you enjoy whatever you do to earn a living. If you make good choices with your training and career you can end up enjoying your job. But whether you enjoy it or not you need to produce something worthwhile if you expect someone to pay you for it.

[mashman]

It can't be other than bullshit, that's what it's made of. Money is not an infinite resource, to start with. If it was then all of those problems you say were caused by the lack of money wouldn't be problems, would they? We'd just throw a shitload of money at them and they wouldn't be problems any more, would they?

And I haven't ever said people are or aren't lazy. What I have said is that they wouldn't be anywhere near as productive if the appropriate reward for their efforts were removed, a behaviour common to every living organism on the planet.

As for your "alternative"; it isn't, it's economic death on a stick, the end of civilisation as we know it. Luckily it hasn't a dog's show in hell of ever seeing the light of day, so it's not something anyone ever need lose any sleep over.

When you can admit that outside of the criminal element and the recipients of various hand-outs the money each person has represents the value earned by that person, and that they have the right to negotiate exchanges for whatever goods they want based on that value then you might have some chance of having a sensible conversation on matters economic, but not until.

Because you say it can't? For every "you" there's a "me" and they are willing to be productive. No, you're describing the rules under which money is supposed to be allowed to be created. Given that they also pluck govt bonds out of thin air etc... to then justify printing money, I fail to see how you can't see it as anything other than infinite. If money solved those problems (which it can't), then yes, "printing" enough for everyone to afford their "bills" and "lifestyle" would go a long way towards addressing the issues. Tis the reason many economists tout a system with an unconditional income at its heart.

Really? I took a pay cut and I'm just as productive... in fact the company gets more hours out of me than I'm contracted for. NOW then, I wonder if I'm alone in doing such a thing... no, I know a few people who do the same. Why? Figure it out yourself.

Economic death on a stick eh. Well I'm saying it'll be the opposite. You've got no evidence, I've got no evidence... tell you what, let's try something radical and explain it to the entire country and let them decide whether they'll be willing productive participants... after all, it should be an absolute cake walk for the financial system if that were the case. I reckon it'll be MUCH closer than you think.

Understood. Not admitted. Well, not until you admit that a binman is just as, if not more, important than a Dr and that they should be remunerated equally.

[mashman]

Um, you know that store has to pay the producer for those goods right? Just cos you can't afford em doesn't mean they have not been paid for. Comments like that make your approach seem ignorant and selfish, so you may want to think about the bigger picture in future.

Well, enjoy your delusions then, I'll eat all my money if it ever happens within my lifetime though.

... fucksake that's amazing. You mean there's an entire supply chain that I've never considered? OMG, I'll have to go back to the drawing board.

I'll enjoy mine more than I enjoy yours.

[bogan]

... fucksake that's amazing. You mean there's an entire supply chain that I've never considered? OMG, I'll have to go back to the drawing board.

Sarcasm, the lowest form of wit, and it's not much of a rebuttal either.

[Scuba_Steve]

Money is not an infinite resource, to start with.

It's not a resource at all. You can print it all you fucking like and it'll still not be a resource.

If that was your point all along you could have just said "money is not a resource"; you made the point of saying "money is not an infinite resource" implying you believe money to be a resource but one that has absolute limits.
But either way as things currently stand I'd say it is a resource alot of others say the same

Show me some money other than savings that doesn't represent an asset.

Take a look in your wallet... there it is

[mashman]

Sarcasm, the lowest form of wit, and it's not much of a rebuttal either.

Yes I understand that there are many dudes around the world mining for minerals and those minerals can only be mined because someone developed shovels/machines and that those who designed shovels/machines learned how to fashion such items in "schools" (unless they innovated of course) and those who taught them were once not very old and needed to be looked after by their parents and that they all needed food and water to live and were very lucky because we had farmers and people who maintained water supplies... ad infinitum. Yes, I have thought about the supply chain. Better dear?

[bogan]

Yes I understand that there are many dudes around the world mining for minerals and those minerals can only be mined because someone developed shovels/machines and that those who designed shovels/machines learned how to fashion such items in "schools" (unless they innovated of course) and those who taught them were once not very old and needed to be looked after by their parents and that they all needed food and water to live and were very lucky because we had farmers and people who maintained water supplies... ad infinitum. Yes, I have thought about the supply chain. Better dear?

No, because you still haven't explained how that means the resources we haven't paid for, are available.

[mashman]

No, because you still haven't explained how that means the resources we haven't paid for, are available.

Every single element that goes into every single product is available before people are paid to "produce" them.

[bogan]

Every single element that goes into every single product is available before people are paid to "produce" them.

In what quantity? and in most cases they need work and equipment/materials to make the elements available for use in a product. Only through the use of resources are those other resources available, and even then only in finite quantities. So no, removing money would not somehow make those resources available for use.

[mashman]

In what quantity? and in most cases they need work and equipment/materials to make the elements available for use in a product. Only through the use of resources are those other resources available, and even then only in finite quantities. So no, removing money would not somehow make those resources available for use.

So we're back to you saying people won't work if they aren't financially remunerated. I disagree.