Stupid World

[mashman]

They could call it like a Goods and Services Tax or something right?

heh... no. I mean on every $ spent/received.

[bogan]

heh... no. I mean on every $ spent/received.

Just have a think about the implications to money velocity, cash usage, and distribution services...

[mashman]

Just have a think about the implications to money velocity, cash usage, and distribution services...

Cash? how outdated... and if you can't think of any way to deal with the usage of cash issues, then you really haven't thought it through and by then claiming that I haven't thought about the implications already is just you being, well, you.

[mstriumph]

That's what facts are, dude, if you don't got numbers you've just got opinions.

Numbers, for example demonstrate that western economic systems provide enough opportunities that absolute poverty is non existent, a distinction unmatched in human history. The UN had to invent a whole NEW IMPROVED meaning of poverty in order to be able to continue to believably blame them for having "poor" people.

My Grandfather was fond of saying "there are three classes of liars ... liars, damn liars and statistics" - wiser than most, he was. Should have been in politics but his parents were married.

From my own observation, no matter how pure your base data, how carefully collected, how systematically recorded, THERE IS NO STATISTICAL DATA that can't be twisted, pruned, obfuscated, and then presented in such a way as to 'prove' to the masses that a chestnut horse is actually a horse chestnut (that concept isn't original).

To the pure, all things are pure ... unfortunately to some out there 'fact' and 'truth' can be redefined at will to reflect whatever suits their current political or self-serving end.

[bogan]

Cash? how outdated... and if you can't think of any way to deal with the usage of cash issues, then you really haven't thought it through and by then claiming that I haven't thought about the implications already is just you being, well, you.

Oh, I'm sorry if you thought that was the start of the discussion, I was just pointing you in the right direction to get an education about things which you clearly have little to no basic understanding of.

[bogan]

My Grandfather was fond of saying "there are three classes of liars ... liars, damn liars and statistics" - wiser than most, he was. Should have been in politics but his parents were married.

From my own observation, no matter how pure your base data, how carefully collected, how systematically recorded, THERE IS NO STATISTICAL DATA that can't be twisted, pruned, obfuscated, and then presented in such a way as to 'prove' to the masses that a chestnut horse is actually a horse chestnut (that concept isn't original).

To the pure, all things are pure ... unfortunately to some out there 'fact' and 'truth' can be redefined at will to reflect whatever suits their current political or self-serving end.

Bah, that's just a line from people who would rather cling to their own opinions than do a little reading into the facts. Yeh stats can be twisted, but they can be untwisted just as easily for anyone with a bit of grey matter. Opinions on the other hand, just like arseholes; everyones got em, and most are full of shit

[mashman]

Oh, I'm sorry if you thought that was the start of the discussion, I was just pointing you in the right direction to get an education about things which you clearly have little to no basic understanding of.

... so a bold statement with no foundation eh. How very scientific of you.

[bogan]

... so a bold statement with no foundation eh. How very scientific of you.

I gave you ample chance to prove you had both the open-mindedness, and intelligence for such a discussion; your grade - pants on head retarded. You're simply not worthy of discussing things as equals; this may sound harsh to people just tuning in, but mashy is a guy who thinks we can fix foreign debt by selling million dollar hammers. Like I said, pants on head retarded.

[mashman]

I gave you ample chance to prove you had both the open-mindedness, and intelligence for such a discussion; your grade - pants on head retarded. You're simply not worthy of discussing things as equals; this may sound harsh to people just tuning in, but mashy is a guy who thinks we can fix foreign debt by selling million dollar hammers. Like I said, pants on head retarded.

Ahhhhh yes, you don't like what you hear so discount it without reason. Cool, I'll happily wear my pants on my head if the alternative is holding your close minded views. After all, you were the one claiming that there would be problems with an FTT, not me.

1. How would an FTT have a negative affect the velocity of money?
2. How would an FTT be circumvented by cash usage?
3. How would an FTT have a negative affect of distribution services?

1. The same money will still be spent on the same things.
2. You mean you can't check either remove physical currency from circulation (it will happen one day) or you can't compare the bank balance of those who have withdrawn money to spend and apply FTT to that amount? Coz the IRD don't bill people eh
3. The same money will still be spent on the same things.

Your turn... unless of course you do realise that you haven't thought anything through at all but moreover have stuck your thumb up your ass and filed an FTT in the too hard basket because some text book, or worse (a human being) told you that such things can't be achieved. What's with the negative waves Moriarty.

[Brian d marge]

But his parents were married hahahaha

He wasnt qualified enough or had to much morals to be a politician

Sent from my SC-01F using Tapatalk

[bogan]

Ahhhhh yes, you don't like what you hear so discount it without reason. Cool, I'll happily wear my pants on my head if the alternative is holding your close minded views. After all, you were the one claiming that there would be problems with an FTT, not me.

1. How would an FTT have a negative affect the velocity of money?
2. How would an FTT be circumvented by cash usage?
3. How would an FTT have a negative affect of distribution services?

1. The same money will still be spent on the same things.
2. You mean you can't check either remove physical currency from circulation (it will happen one day) or you can't compare the bank balance of those who have withdrawn money to spend and apply FTT to that amount? Coz the IRD don't bill people eh
3. The same money will still be spent on the same things.

Your turn... unless of course you do realise that you haven't thought anything through at all but moreover have stuck your thumb up your ass and filed an FTT in the too hard basket because some text book, or worse (a human being) told you that such things can't be achieved. What's with the negative waves Moriarty.

As transfers are taxed directly, so tax is proportional to money velocity, so it will slow it down, as people spend less often, in order to pay less tax and get more for their buck.
The govt has no way to tell how many transactions the cash money has gone through between withdrawal and deposit, so is unable to apply an FTT on steve buying jack's commodore so jack can buy hamish's falcon, who can then buy a sweet bike from a dealership with cash.
Every step in the supply chain now has to add value of at least the FTT, middle men will be circumvented wherever possible, because they do not add enough convenience in many case. Currently they are struggling with just the overheads of maintaining a local shop, forcing them to increase prices across the board is not going to allow them to remain competitive. Removal of middlemen is bad for resource useage, as middlemen do a lot more bulk shipping, than the one offs you get with direct to consumer transactions.

[blue rider]

[mashman]

As transfers are taxed directly, so tax is proportional to money velocity, so it will slow it down, as people spend less often, in order to pay less tax and get more for their buck.
The govt has no way to tell how many transactions the cash money has gone through between withdrawal and deposit, so is unable to apply an FTT on steve buying jack's commodore so jack can buy hamish's falcon, who can then buy a sweet bike from a dealership with cash.
Every step in the supply chain now has to add value of at least the FTT, middle men will be circumvented wherever possible, because they do not add enough convenience in many case. Currently they are struggling with just the overheads of maintaining a local shop, forcing them to increase prices across the board is not going to allow them to remain competitive. Removal of middlemen is bad for resource useage, as middlemen do a lot more bulk shipping, than the one offs you get with direct to consumer transactions.

Why are people going to spend less often? Surely that'll depend on the rate of tax applied, which in turn will depend on how wide ranging you make FTT?
I'm sure it won't be easy to track all cash transactions, but given that at some point that cash will be getting used to purchase stuff it will be caught at that point. A cashless society (not mine obviously) would allow for the cash transaction issue to be negated. Any cash removed from an account will be assumed to be paying for something being another extreme that could be implemented. In your example there's still GST being made when buyin hiz ride, which would also mean that an FTT could be applied instead.
Middlemen "suffering" may well be the case and I can't see why that'd be a huge downside (reckon Ocean would agree with that). Perhaps they'd move to meet the market, ya know, diversify, retrain, move to where the work is, get a real job .

[bogan]

Why are people going to spend less often? Surely that'll depend on the rate of tax applied, which in turn will depend on how wide ranging you make FTT?
I'm sure it won't be easy to track all cash transactions, but given that at some point that cash will be getting used to purchase stuff it will be caught at that point. A cashless society (not mine obviously) would allow for the cash transaction issue to be negated. Any cash removed from an account will be assumed to be paying for something being another extreme that could be implemented. In your example there's still GST being made when buyin hiz ride, which would also mean that an FTT could be applied instead.
Middlemen "suffering" may well be the case and I can't see why that'd be a huge downside (reckon Ocean would agree with that). Perhaps they'd move to meet the market, ya know, diversify, retrain, move to where the work is, get a real job .

As before, not a discussion, that is just where you should start if you wish to educate yourself. At least you're starting to think into a bit more now, in future try and do so more off your own initiative; and on this topic, think it through a bit further still, there is plenty of stuff online about why it is a bad idea to universally apply FTTs; in fact the wiki on the article gets you off to a good start right from the get-go "A financial transaction tax is a levy placed on a specific type of monetary transaction for a particular purpose"

[mashman]

As before, not a discussion, that is just where you should start if you wish to educate yourself. At least you're starting to think into a bit more now, in future try and do so more off your own initiative; and on this topic, think it through a bit further still, there is plenty of stuff online about why it is a bad idea to universally apply FTTs; in fact the wiki on the article gets you off to a good start right from the get-go "A financial transaction tax is a levy placed on a specific type of monetary transaction for a particular purpose"

Thanks Dad. I'm goin fushun.