Stupid World

[mashman]

WTO deal opens doors for NZ business

Here it comes... "We already follow the rules, but just don't get the benefit for our New Zealand exporters," Mr Joyce said."... Have the WTO been stopping NZ exporters from being allowed to play in their pool? Almost sounds like a monopoly to me... and now we can be sued according to the rules. I didn't vote for this and wouldn't if I did.

[mashman]

Bankers keen to make Kiwis more money smart... waaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... and oh how I wish I had spare money to let the oh so solid banks to invest... it's not like they'll ever need bailing out . Line up idiots, they're going to tell you all of their secrets so that you too can make pots of money like they do.

[BoristheBiter]

Bankers keen to make Kiwis more money smart... waaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... and oh how I wish I had spare money to let the oh so solid banks to invest... it's not like they'll ever need bailing out . Line up idiots, they're going to tell you all of their secrets so that you too can make pots of money like they do.

See now if you take them up on this offer you would have some spare money to use to go and see how to have more money..........but if you have spare money to use to go along to this you wouldn't need to go as you already know how to make money....


My's head hurt now.

[mashman]

Greece told to produce results for support

I dunno. Ya pay your taxes over your lifetime and some slimey bastards somewhere siphon it off and do back room details... and the outcome is that joe tax payer gets the kick in the bollocks. I feel for the Greeks in a big way, especially having to deal with a bunch of white mother fuckers demanding that they get their house in order by saving a fuckload of money in order to be allowed to borrow some more. Words can't express what an epic fail this financial system is... such a shame that so many accept it as the only solution without question.

[James Deuce]

Greece told to produce results for support

I dunno. Ya pay your taxes over your lifetime and some slimey bastards somewhere siphon it off and do back room details... and the outcome is that joe tax payer gets the kick in the bollocks. I feel for the Greeks in a big way, especially having to deal with a bunch of white mother fuckers demanding that they get their house in order by saving a fuckload of money in order to be allowed to borrow some more. Words can't express what an epic fail this financial system is... such a shame that so many accept it as the only solution without question.

Umm, the problem is that the Greeks DIDN'T pay taxes, not enough to sustain the country without borrowing money to buy groceries. They are the architects of their own demise.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financ...alk_surowiecki

And yes I do understand the provenance of the New Yorker, but it is simply one of many analyses from many parts of the socio-political spectrum. The Economist calculated that no one (individuals, corporations, limited business, sole traders) with the equivalent of $US1,000,000 in personal or business capital paid any tax at all. A huge percentage, more than a quarter of the Greek economy is "black" in that it escapes the tax man's withering eye entirely.

I have little sympathy for their plight. The cornerstone of their national finances had been nicked and sold to Croatians while no one was looking. Not looking, because they'd been paid to look the other way. The Croatians used it to train Tennis players. Or something. They may have been Macedonians. The point is, if you're not willing to pay your share then don't bitch when your economy collapses and your safeguards turn out to have been built with playing cards and maintained by straw men.

[mashman]

Umm, the problem is that the Greeks DIDN'T pay taxes, not enough to sustain the country without borrowing money to buy groceries. They are the architects of their own demise.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financ...alk_surowiecki

And yes I do understand the provenance of the New Yorker, but it is simply one of many analyses from many parts of the socio-political spectrum. The Economist calculated that no one (individuals, corporations, limited business, sole traders) with the equivalent of $US1,000,000 in personal or business capital paid any tax at all. A huge percentage, more than a quarter of the Greek economy is "black" in that it escapes the tax man's withering eye entirely.

I have little sympathy for their plight. The cornerstone of their national finances had been nicked and sold to Croatians while no one was looking. Not looking, because they'd been paid to look the other way. The Croatians used it to train Tennis players. Or something. They may have been Macedonians. The point is, if you're not willing to pay your share then don't bitch when your economy collapses and your safeguards turn out to have been built with playing cards and maintained by straw men.

I agree to a degree... but taxation policy, associated loopholes and the management of the govt is not down to the people as they do not see the books. If they were that worried surely the govt should have put up it's hand, or even closed the loopholes that were obviously there. To that end I don't blame the Greek people at all... especially if they're paying what they think is needed to keep them from being raped by world class organisations. So this, you've only got yourselves to blame, is more, those who should have known better sold the rest of the people down the river.

On the flip side, it would also have me a little concerned in regards to the ideology of give the people as much of their taxes as possible because the market will see everyone right. A country isn't its people any more eh.

[James Deuce]

It is down to the people in this instance and the reason the Greeks rioted was because the so called "austerity measures" are simply the Government exercising its right to collect the correct amount of tax from people. Greek Governments are voted in on the basis that they won't feck with the tax collection, or lack of it, hence the rapid turn over in party leaders, Prime Ministers, and Governments of late.

The financial collapse of Greece is entirely down to the unwillingness of the voting population to pay tax and their inability to stop borrowing more than they earned.

Angela Merkel said something quite fruity when she was told, just after Germany save Greek Arse the first time, that the highest per capita population of Porsche Cayennes (No one said the Greeks have taste) in the world was to be found in Athens. Not a single one was owned by the "owner", they were all leased or on tick and mostly financed on deals Porsche had sourced from Germany. So Germany paid to produce the Greek Porsche Cayennes, then funded their purchase - twice, without seeing anything go into the German economy because as soon as their economy collapsed the poor wee Greek darlings simply stopped paying loans back. The Greek people are not victims. They tacitly supported the tax regime and over-borrowing that went on for decades.

[mashman]

It is down to the people in this instance and the reason the Greeks rioted was because the so called "austerity measures" are simply the Government exercising its right to collect the correct amount of tax from people. Greek Governments are voted in on the basis that they won't feck with the tax collection, or lack of it, hence the rapid turn over in party leaders, Prime Ministers, and Governments of late.

The financial collapse of Greece is entirely down to the unwillingness of the voting population to pay tax and their inability to stop borrowing more than they earned.

Angela Merkel said something quite fruity when she was told, just after Germany save Greek Arse the first time, that the highest per capita population of Porsche Cayennes (No one said the Greeks have taste) in the world was to be found in Athens. Not a single one was owned by the "owner", they were all leased or on tick and mostly financed on deals Porsche had sourced from Germany. So Germany paid to produce the Greek Porsche Cayennes, then funded their purchase - twice, without seeing anything go into the German economy because as soon as their economy collapsed the poor wee Greek darlings simply stopped paying loans back. The Greek people are not victims. They tacitly supported the tax regime and over-borrowing that went on for decades.

So because taxation was low the people should have known that they weren't paying enough for the govt to provide the services that it was? Bit harsh. I thought the riots started because some youngster got shot and the riots after that, as you say, were in regards to taxation. Although from what I've read, granted not a huge amount, but it seemed to be how they went about collecting that tax that annoyed the Greek people. I'd love to know where that wee brutal gem of an idea came from? Reckon it was the Greek govt? or perhaps the Impossible Mission Force, Enterprising Umpires and the Evangelical Cash Believers? Hardly surprising they reacted given the way they did.

Surely the wise idea would have been to close the tax loopholes and to progressively raise tax thresholds so that people could adjust? perhaps the entire population of Athens would have returned they expensive cars? People borrow, tis the name of the game and it is avoidable, and no doubt a lot of people borrowed where they had the assets and cash flow to cover the bills at that point in time. Suddenly telling people no, fuck off, pay everything back now is a bit cheeky wouldn't you say? So I still don't fully blame the Greek people, as a country full of individuals.

[James Deuce]

Nooooo! Taxation ISN'T low in Greece! People just don't pay it. There are no more loopholes in their system than any other comparable Western tax system, they have simply been allowed to operate more than a quarter of their economy out from under big brother's eye. Couple that with the business approach to paying tax, you know, NOT paying it, just like every other business, then add in that more than a quarter of your employees don't show up on the books and are paid under the table, you have an economy that isn't big enough to sustain the level of Government and private borrowing that was going on. No sympathy at all, particularly when I live in a country that fronted up to unsustainable Government borrowing and instantly removed 100,000 jobs from the market in a the space of a few months, simply to get back to the point where they could afford interest-only payments on the previous Government's decade and half of excessive borrowing.

It was horrible, it was hard, it destroyed the feeling that NZ was a place where you went to school, left, got a job, did all those normal life things and it was pretty easy. The concept of Job security died instantly, and the Greeks are simply throwing a massive tanty because they're being made to face up to their National and personal money mismanagement.

[mashman]

So it's the fault of those who don't pay it, even though they are allowed not to pay it? Who allowed them to operate in such a way? The people did by voting for tax breaks? and they did so knowing that it was to the detriment of the country? Or did they trust those in power to collect enough to cover the bills, as they are paid to do? I find it hard to justify that it is the "fault" with the people where the "system" has gone unchecked. I have sympathy for those who trusted their system and the guardians of it.

What a way to live ... making the masses pay for the excess of the few.

[James Deuce]

So it's the fault of those who don't pay it, even though they are allowed not to pay it? Who allowed them to operate in such a way? The people did by voting for tax breaks? and they did so knowing that it was to the detriment of the country? Or did they trust those in power to collect enough to cover the bills, as they are paid to do? I find it hard to justify that it is the "fault" with the people where the "system" has gone unchecked. I have sympathy for those who trusted their system and the guardians of it.

What a way to live ... making the masses pay for the excess of the few.

The people are the system. This is the core value that has been lost from Western Democracy. When the system no longer fears the people, that is when these types of things happen. They happen because the people let it happen. There is no one else to blame for perpetuating a system that doesn't work, and your ignore its faults by sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "la la la la la la la la la!" for 50 years.

[mashman]

The people are the system. This is the core value that has been lost from Western Democracy. When the system no longer fears the people, that is when these types of things happen. They happen because the people let it happen. There is no one else to blame for perpetuating a system that doesn't work, and your ignore its faults by sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "la la la la la la la la la!" for 50 years.

Whole heartedly agree... and we can't say we haven't been warned over the last 200 - 300 years (at least). Wonder why little has ever been done about it? Must be a bitch living with Stockholm Syndrome.

[mashman]

All your mail belong to US. Flip flop flip flop... wonder why he changed his mind?

[madandy]

Well thats not very democratic!
A few hundred million emails every day in the US alone so they'll be reading those that feature certain choice words and phrases.

' I got my guns loaded, the money is in the bag and we got the stash prepared to exchange'

[Edbear]

Interesting to note that the vast majority of NZ's debt is private, not Governmental. People are dumb enough to get themselves into debt without thinking about the consequences, regardless of the rules.

It is, as usual, a combination of fiscal irresponsibility by the powers in an attempt to remain in power and popular, plus consumer irresponsibility in a drive to have a lifestyle they can't afford.