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Thread: Stupid World

  1. #7546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    If what Unison say is correct and non solar users are subsidising the solar users then yes the extra charges are fair.
    Only a supplier working in a very distorted market could come up with that rationalisation. It sort of says that these are our costs and we'll mess with charges to each category of client however we see fit in order to cover those costs.

    When in fact the cost to supply their product is nearly identical for all of their (residential) clients: the cost of supplying the infrastructure. The actual consumption affects that cost-to-supply figure so little it's not worth worrying about, certainly not worth the costs of metering.

    So they should really be charging a set fee for connection, and that's it. They've distorted the market to extract the most from it and the market has reacted as it always will: it's changed shape to meet supply costs.

    When the industry sorts their charges out more in line with the cost to supply they'll have my respect. Until then, like every other customer I'll take every opportunity to cut their margins as far as possible.
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  2. #7547
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    That's slow ..America went through this about a year ago..with utilities in one of the coastal regions adding charges to solar .....because of the dumping of cheap solar panels on the market by china AFTER soros pulled his investment by selling to a German company who as any capitalist would know ramped up supply to meet the demand tis what more or less happened

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  3. #7548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Only a supplier working in a very distorted market could come up with that rationalisation. It sort of says that these are our costs and we'll mess with charges to each category of client however we see fit in order to cover those costs.

    When in fact the cost to supply their product is nearly identical for all of their (residential) clients: the cost of supplying the infrastructure. The actual consumption affects that cost-to-supply figure so little it's not worth worrying about, certainly not worth the costs of metering.

    So they should really be charging a set fee for connection, and that's it. They've distorted the market to extract the most from it and the market has reacted as it always will: it's changed shape to meet supply costs.

    When the industry sorts their charges out
    And that one, even though I agree with the vast majority of the post in regards to market "ethic", goes in the ignorance category... but only coz money.
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  4. #7549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Only a supplier working in a very distorted market could come up with that rationalisation. It sort of says that these are our costs and we'll mess with charges to each category of client however we see fit in order to cover those costs.

    When in fact the cost to supply their product is nearly identical for all of their (residential) clients: the cost of supplying the infrastructure. The actual consumption affects that cost-to-supply figure so little it's not worth worrying about, certainly not worth the costs of metering.

    So they should really be charging a set fee for connection, and that's it. They've distorted the market to extract the most from it and the market has reacted as it always will: it's changed shape to meet supply costs.

    When the industry sorts their charges out more in line with the cost to supply they'll have my respect. Until then, like every other customer I'll take every opportunity to cut their margins as far as possible.
    Fair enough, also the solar guys could just man up and go completely off grid if the energy companies don't play ball.
    I mentioned vegetables once, but I think I got away with it...........

  5. #7550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Fair enough, also the solar guys could just man up and go completely off grid if the energy companies don't play ball.
    Better yet, get the infrastructure to go off grid, but instead use the battery bank to buffer the load on the grid.
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  6. #7551
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    Better yet, get the infrastructure to go off grid, but instead use the battery bank to buffer the load on the grid.

    Correct me if I misunderstand, but do you mean that every house has its own solar power and we get rid of power stations, and any excess goes into a grid/battery bank? maybe smaller localised or community grids? sort of like the internet?

    Would that work?

    Or have I got the wrong end of your stick?
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  7. #7552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Correct me if I misunderstand, but do you mean that every house has its own solar power and we get rid of power stations, and any excess goes into a grid/battery bank? maybe smaller localised or community grids? sort of like the internet?

    Would that work?

    Or have I got the wrong end of your stick?
    Sort of, I was more thinking home batteries would be more important, as they could buffer out the peak demand completely. Local grid, and power generation, can then be rated to a lower value; or conversely (and more usefully), with the existing infrastructure we could supply a higher 'peak' demand.

    Similar to Electric vehicles, if it's not effectively planned, there will be breakers tripping all over the show at 5:30pm when cars are put on the charge. But were it actually engineered, you could use the batteries in those cars to trickle charge overnight, but also feed back to the grid when required.
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  8. #7553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
    Fair enough, also the solar guys could just man up and go completely off grid if the energy companies don't play ball.
    Trouble is the cost of the local storage. It'd cost far more to build a realistic storage system than it cost to generate the power.

    One of the reasons for the acceleration in installing smart meters is the growth in domestic generation, the new meters either don't record power going the other way or they record it separately. This so that the supplier isn't paying for their clients contribution, it's not being treated as a credit.

    A good system would be a national supply network charged for on the basis of a direct share of the infrastructure cost, while taking advantage of the growing micro-generation capacity by end users by allowing credits for local generation. Best of both worlds.

    But to make that work you have to free up the market, take out all the subsidies and surcharges.
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  9. #7554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post

    A good system would be a national supply network charged for on the basis of a direct share of the infrastructure cost, while taking advantage of the growing micro-generation capacity by end users by allowing credits for local generation. Best of both worlds.
    Your charge system would work if all were at an equal distance from supply...It's very bad now in some rural areas. I met a couple who lived in Lees valley - some distance inland from Oxford,North Canty. They'd been forced to go off the grid cos the cost of putting in a line from the closest mains supply was in excess of $6000. They'd been advised that annual maintenance costs could in some years equal that too.

  10. #7555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    Your charge system would work if all were at an equal distance from supply...It's very bad now in some rural areas. I met a couple who lived in Lees valley - some distance inland from Oxford,North Canty. They'd been forced to go off the grid cos the cost of putting in a line from the closest mains supply was in excess of $6000. They'd been advised that annual maintenance costs could in some years equal that too.
    I meant an equal share of the cost of the infrastructure.

    You're right in that that's still a distortion of the costs of supply, a subsidy, but I think it's one that most users would be happy to bear.

    What they're probably less happy with is the suppliers all refusing to allow consumer generated power to use the grid as a storage facility, a practice that would arguably eventually form the basis of a better system. Better because the thousands of micro-generators would be far more flexible and would allow better use of the national generating facilities. Far less use of coal to start with.

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  11. #7556
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    http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...-solar-pv.html

    Spain's government has recently approved a new national law on self-consumption of energy that taxes solar installations disproportionately. Most notably, the majority of self-consumers will be also taxed for the electricity they generate and consume in their premises, via their own PV systems.

    According to Spain’s Photovoltaic Union (UNEF), the new law requires self-consumption PV system owners to pay the same grid fees that all electricity consumers in Spain pay, plus a so-called 'sun tax'. Specifically, said UNEF, a self-consumption PV owner "will pay a 'sun tax' for the whole power [capacity] installed (the power that you contracted to your electricity company, plus the power from your PV installation) and also another [second] 'sun tax' for the electricity that you generate and self-consume from your own PV installation (this applies to installations larger than 10 kW)."
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  12. #7557
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    Thin end of the bloody wedge...How long before you're charged for rain you've caught and stored ?

    Or as may be more likely, where a council charges for water, your own well will probably have to be metered and paid for.....

  13. #7558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    Or as may be more likely, where a council charges for water, your own well will probably have to be metered and paid for.....
    Welcome to farm irrigation 20 years ago...

    Which to be fair, is justified as the water table wells go in to, should be managed for environmental reasons.
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  14. #7559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    Thin end of the bloody wedge...How long before you're charged for rain you've caught and stored ?

    Or as may be more likely, where a council charges for water, your own well will probably have to be metered and paid for.....
    You'll need to have rights to the water before you're charged for its use.

    Collecting rainwater now illegal in many [US] states as Big Government claims ownership over our water
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  15. #7560
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashman View Post
    You'll need to have rights to the water before you're charged for its use.

    Collecting rainwater now illegal in many [US] states as Big Government claims ownership over our water
    Oh look, Big Government does something else you don't like. In fact there's nothing new about it at all, it's amongst the oldest legislation in history.

    It's purpose is to prevent someone monopolizing water resources. And you'd be the very first to bleat like a stuck pig if your uphill neighbor prevented you getting access to "your share" of the stream.

    In fact given the number of dry rivers this summer I could wish there was a bunch more such legislation here.
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