Stupid World

[onearmedbandit]

My issue is that at the ultimate conclusion there is one inevitability: Western liberal capitalist democracies cannot co-exist with Marxism. In the same way that Christianity cannot co-exist with Satanism.

So how do you suggest we solve it? Because they both exist, and complaining about the other side achieves very little. Look at the Trump thread, over 100 pages of the same complaints and arguments, my guy good, your guy bad. It would be a challenge to find a post where someone has said 'you know what, you are right, I was wrong, I now see things your way and agree, lets move forward and make a change for the better'. So, as you can't get rid of the other side, how do you suggest we find ways to co-exist?

Here is my question to you then: How would you (not me) build a bridge to a Marxist?

Sorry I cannot profess to be knowledgeable enough to answer that riddle. But asking it of ourselves, no matter which side we are on, is probably a pretty damn good start. Because the old tactics of pointing fingers has not done much.

[pritch]

It really sucks because the equivalent Schlick razor is not as good

That much is true.

[TheDemonLord]

So how do you suggest we solve it? Because they both exist, and complaining about the other side achieves very little. Look at the Trump thread, over 100 pages of the same complaints and arguments, my guy good, your guy bad. It would be a challenge to find a post where someone has said 'you know what, you are right, I was wrong, I now see things your way and agree, lets move forward and make a change for the better'. So, as you can't get rid of the other side, how do you suggest we find ways to co-exist?

The only solution IMO is that we both have to agree on one thing that everyone agreed on.

Once upon a time it was Religion... Until it wasn't.
Then it was the Country, then that wasn't.
For a time whilst we had the USSR, and the ever present threat lead to both the left and right being vigilant to the radical left, then when the Iron Curtain fell, we got complacent.
For the UK it used to be the Queen, I'm hopeful that King Charles can fit his mother's legendary shoes, but I'm also skeptical.

I think part of this problem is that we as a species are not evolved to live in large groups much larger than 100-200 people. The more we exceed that number, the greater the problems become. You can get 10 people to agree on something they all like, you can probably get 100 people to agree on something they all like. 1,000? Maybe if it's pretty nebulous - but past that you aren't going to get any consensus on anything.

If you go back in NZ's history, most local communities probably had a few thousand people at most, there was this over-arching idea of 'New Zealand' - those communities had ways of keeping each other in check and also keeping the bonds of social cohesion strong - whether that was Church, Rugby or simply checking in on your neighbours.

In some countries I think that void is filled by National Service - something that everyone has to do.

Those strong communities provided the foundation for a strong society. I might even go ultra-conservative here and say the Family is the most fundamental building block of Society - Strong Families create strong communities, strong communities create strong cities, Strong cities create a strong nation.

Strength being used in terms of strong social cohesion, not strength of arms or military strength.

There's other factors that I think are relevant - Social Media, instant communication etc.

I also think that the Education system has a lot to answer for - I know several Teachers, some of whom are pretty much outright Marxists (they vote for the Greens and are as Left as they come) I can't think of a single conservative Teacher that I personally know.

In particular - teaching kids to hate the West. Whether it's by failing to put the horrors of the Slave Trade in context (that everyone did it and it was the British that stopped it) or being unfair to the British Empire (it did some bad shit, but it also brought Democracy, Trial by jury, Steam Trains etc.) or Capitalism is bad etc.

Sorry I cannot profess to be knowledgeable enough to answer that riddle. But asking it of ourselves, no matter which side we are on, is probably a pretty damn good start. Because the old tactics of pointing fingers has not done much.

Which is an honest answer, and to be clear I've got no answer either - so don't think it's a Gotcha. I saw something the other day that perhaps exemplified what I see as the issue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommu..._on_communism/

Although the question is deleted - you can see from the first reply all the context needed: Dude is a Communist, has Polish parents (who lived through it) - they moved to the US in 1994 (I know that because of a Screenshot from the now-deleted question). The person who has never experienced a Political system is trying to tell people who personally experienced the horrors of that system why it's not like that. What other word can one use except for Zealot? If your own family telling you 'No, we suffered through this and it was horrible' is not enough, then what hope have I got?

The only 'answer' I've got is to ship them off somewhere so they can experience 'Real Communism' for themselves and hope they get out alive. And that's a shit answer.

[pete376403]

I also think that the Education system has a lot to answer for - I know several Teachers, some of whom are pretty much outright Marxists (they vote for the Greens and are as Left as they come) I can't think of a single conservative Teacher that I personally know.

And why do you think it is that conservatives dont want to become teachers? Too busy looking after number 1 to worry about passing on knowledge? Dont want to give away information when they would rather sell it? Worried / scared that those who they teach will become competition in the battle for wealth and resources? Does it concern you that your own children have more exposure to these people in a day than to you?

[Grumph]

I'd propose the possibility that since corporal punishment was abolished in schools the profession has become less attractive to conservatives.

In my day when corporal punishment was common, it was usually the Conservatives (capital letter) who were known for resorting to it.

In my view the aim of a good teacher is to teach students how to think for themselves. An idea which is anathema to conservatives.

[TheDemonLord]

And why do you think it is that conservatives dont want to become teachers?

Because Education, as an Institution currently, is openly hostile to them.

This is a real life example of Robert Conquest's second law. Would you want to work somewhere where everyone not only thought you were wrong but actually thought you were an immoral and reprehensible human being for simply having a different opinion?

There's other reasons, such as temperament, There's some research that shows certain combinations of personality traits tend towards one wing of Politics and those same traits tend towards certain professions. Things like creative pursuits have a left-wing bias to them. Artists, Actors, Musicians.

Academia is almost all Left Wing, with a few subjects (Law, Engineering, Maths and the Hard Sciences) still having a somewhat even split (insert joke about if communists understood maths, they wouldn't be communists...)

Too busy looking after number 1 to worry about passing on knowledge? Dont want to give away information when they would rather sell it? Worried / scared that those who they teach will become competition in the battle for wealth and resources?

None of which are conservative principles.

I mean, they are definitely capitalist principles. Not conservative though.

Does it concern you that your own children have more exposure to these people in a day than to you?

Yes and No. My Children appear to be as stubborn as me - which is both a blessing and a curse. It's a curse at the moment and once they get a bit older, it will be a blessing. That said, on certain subjects I make sure they hear different views - eventually there will come a point where they will make up their own mind.

[TheDemonLord]

I'd propose the possibility that since corporal punishment was abolished in schools the profession has become less attractive to conservatives.

In my day when corporal punishment was common, it was usually the Conservatives (capital letter) who were known for resorting to it.

There's probably a greater element of truth in that than most Conservatives would care to admit - and I think you are correct - Conservatives are concerned with Law, Order and Consequences. Case in point the last 6 years of Labour and the absolute state of Crime in this country.

I think there are other factors at play - but I will certainly agree that a rigid enforcement of Laws does appeal to the Conservative mindset.

In my view the aim of a good teacher is to teach students how to think for themselves. An idea which is anathema to conservatives.

Why would thinking for oneself be anathema to conservatives?

There's a difference between Openness (the idea to try new things) which in general isn't a conservative trait (duh!) and thinking for oneself.

[R650R]

I'd propose the possibility that since corporal punishment was abolished in schools the profession has become less attractive to conservatives.

In my day when corporal punishment was common, it was usually the Conservatives (capital letter) who were known for resorting to it.

In my view the aim of a good teacher is to teach students how to think for themselves. An idea which is anathema to conservatives.

As a youth I was blissfully unaware of my teachers political affiliations except for a couple. One was first hippy type person I encountered who wasted most of a years socialstudies on South Africa like it was the only problem in the world. Another teacher ex-cop was quite relaxed but deeply religious. While sleeping in a Wellington church alcohol was discovered, all he said was just don’t consume in church guys!
I found corporal punishment quite motivating for learning to think. I earned some arse stripes after a scrap. I learnt not to knee the other guy in face so much as it smears the blood around making it look worse.
Your proposal is probably accurate but it’s prob a combo of both factors leading to current mess.

[R650R]

And why do you think it is that conservatives dont want to become teachers? Too busy looking after number 1 to worry about passing on knowledge? Dont want to give away information when they would rather sell it? Worried / scared that those who they teach will become competition in the battle for wealth and resources? Does it concern you that your own children have more exposure to these people in a day than to you?

Teaching in this country is a low paid profession subject to much political interference. Back in the day many a semi retired engineer or other professional might veer off into education as parting legacy etc. but why would you do it now with a zero discipline environment and the risk of being accused of xyz if you look the wrong way at or say something wrong way to someone.

People of the extreme left know that it takes generations to change attitudes hence there rush to infiltrate the system. Also any university degree in NZ qualifies you to be a teacher, that’s kind of handy after your unemployable with a degree in genders studies or climate change....

[husaberg]

Teaching in this country is a low paid profession subject

The starting rate for a secondary teacher is the same as an average truck driver. The top rate is nearly twice the average trucker driver.
considering the differential in hours worked you are treading water there.

[Berries]

Well I am fucked if I am going to be growing a beard.

[pritch]

Nice little clip on Twitter, doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet. A guy went into a supermarket or similar. Presumably to express his moral outrage at a trans person appearing on a can of beer he commenced throwing cartons and cans out of the chiller and smashing them onto the floor. Leading of course to his being taken away in handcuffs. Oh, and the genius had been attacking the wrong brand of beer.

Almost in an effort to surpass his stupidity Lauren Boebert posted a pic of her preferred Bud Light can featuring a photo pf Pat Tillman. If you don't know how inappropriate that is you'll need to consult your search engine of choice. It's a sad tale.

[pete376403]

Nice little clip on Twitter, doesn't seem to have made it to YouTube yet. A guy went into a supermarket or similar. Presumably to express his moral outrage at a trans person appearing on a can of beer he commenced throwing cartons and cans out of the chiller and smashing them onto the floor. Leading of course to his being taken away in handcuffs. Oh, and the genius had been attacking the wrong brand of beer.

Almost in an effort to surpass his stupidity Lauren Boebert posted a pic of her preferred Bud Light can featuring a photo pf Pat Tillman. If you don't know how inappropriate that is you'll need to consult your search engine of choice. It's a sad tale.

The fire wasn't very friendly

[pritch]

The fire wasn't very friendly

Friendly fire is an oxymoron.

[pritch]

Do I recall somebody here posting Tucker Carlson's claim that Ukraine's casualties in the war were seven to every Russian?

Interesting item from MSNBC.

Reportedly there is a woman on social media, very pro Russian, she speaks with what she imagines to be a Russian accent, but she was born in New Jersey. Even more interesting, she was in the US Navy until last November. She started receiving the intelligence leaked by the twenty year old Airman but she wasn't happy with the raw data. She embellished it. Then Tucker Carlson broadcast some of it as fact.

The official word is that she was already under investigation but the investigation might have been stepped up now? The US military seems to have a serious problem. There are people, Democrats mostly, who want FOX removed from all of the TV sets on US military sites and ships at sea etc. That'd be a start.